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  1. there are opinions in Chazal that the Seven Laws no longer apply

    Comment by Rabbi Joseph Kolakowski — October 13, 2013 @ 4:30 PM

  2. Director of Ask Noah International, publisher of "Sheva Mitzvot HaShem" (3 vols.) and "The Divine Code", by Rabbi Moshe Weiner:
    - The author has unfortunately not understood some important points of the Noahide commandment for Dinim (Laws and Courts), which is well explained in Vol. 3 of "Sheva Mitzvot HaShem". The Torah-based Noahide Code (for Gentiles) only specifies capital punishment from a court of law as a definitive (Scriptural) obligation in regard to the sin of murder (Gen. 9:6). In regard to all other crimes, in practical application, the laws of the land are produced as a societal undertaking, with the caveat that the society is not permitted to legalize any acts that are expressly forbidden by the Noahide Laws. Still, an individual Gentile is judged by G-d according the Noahide Laws (including liability to death by the Hand of Heaven), to the extent that he/she could know them logically or from available information or education. But the physical courts are an institution of the entire society, and (other than for murder) they are ONLY empowered (within the Noahide Code) to apply capital punishment IF at least a simple majority of that Gentile society undertakes to (a) live by the Torah-laws of the Noahide Code AND (b) to set up their courts of law in that faith-based mode. Otherwise, the courts are run according to the civil laws that the society decides to set up for itself (with the above-noted caveat), which may or may not include capital punishment for any particular serious (i.e. society-threatening) crime.

    Comment by Michael Schulman — October 13, 2013 @ 10:53 PM

  3. Dr. Schulman, thank you for your response. I'll be in touch to clarify some of these points.

    Comment by Myles Kantor — October 14, 2013 @ 12:48 AM

  4. Rabbi Joseph Kolakowski: dear rabbi, excuse me, I'm a Noahide and I don't agree with that view. Baba Kamma 38a tells that Hashem saw that gentiles were not fulfilling the seven Noahide Commandments so he made these permissible for them,He gave them an "exemption" and therefore, no longer apply. However,if you read the following statement there,it says: “Mar the son of Rabana thereupon said: it only means that even were they to keep the seven commandments [which had first been accepted but subsequently rejected by them] they would receive no reward.”

    Mar explains that this exemption is not regarding the 'obligation' of fulfilling the Noachide law. Now the Noahide is exempt of reward.Indeed,.Avodah Zarah states explicitly that when Hashem released them from their mitzvot what He did was take away their reward as one who is commanded and fulfills the mitzvah. Therefore,gentiles have to fulfill them,bu if we do it because these are "moral values", then our reward isn't complete.The exemption to it is related by RaMBaM, on Rivtah:Talmud Makkos 9a, related when a Noachide views his commands as divine emanations, and not as practical system of governement,and he's engaged to fulfill them in front of a beit dein. In this case,the Noachide is not considered to be performing the Noachide as moral values, but divinely, as divine orders and then his/her reward is complete.

    Comment by Fabián Sepúlveda Morales — October 14, 2013 @ 3:19 AM

  5. Very well explain..Thanks!

    Comment by Glocelle Reales Tamano — October 14, 2013 @ 6:09 AM

  6. "there are opinions in Chazal that the Seven Laws no longer apply" – That is an idea mentioned in Aggadah, but we do not poskin based on Aggadah. We poskin based on the poskim.

    Comment by Michael Schulman — October 14, 2013 @ 9:03 AM

  7. "there are opinions in Chazal that the Seven Laws no longer apply" – That is an idea mentioned in Aggadah, but we do not poskin based on Aggadah. We poskin based on the poskim.

    Comment by Michael Schulman — October 14, 2013 @ 9:03 AM

  8. So this means that the sins of `avodah zarah, mishkav zakhar, and gilluy `arayot do not absolutely require chayyav mitah by the Noachide Beit Din unless the society decides to do this? I did not know that. Thank you for clarifying.

    Comment by Roy Neal Grissom — October 14, 2013 @ 2:11 PM

  9. The problem is confusion about the meaning and empowered jurisdiction of a "Noahide Beit Din". The term means a Beit Din that is empowered by the Gentile society to judge according to the Torah Laws of the 7 Noahide Commandments. Here is the translation of the relevant text from "Sheva Mitzvot HaShem", vol. 3 (Dinim) by Rabbi Moshe Weiner:

    1:11. The main components of the commandment for Dinim were given for all Gentiles by the Torah of Moses. The Rabbinical authorities of our generation wrote that the Torah Laws concerning actual Noahide-law courts apply only where the majority of the society’s population believes in the One True G-d and specifically keeps the Seven Noahide Laws as their Divine commandments. In that situation, an individual who leaves the behavioral boundaries of the society to transgress them is liable to the [Torah's] specified punishment by an actual Noahide-law court.
    If, however, the majority of the society’s population does not believe in the One True G-d or keep the Seven Noahide Commandments (e.g. if as a whole they regularly permit transgression at least one of the Commandments), the courts of that society are not permitted within Torah Law to sentence a transgressor one of the Seven Noahide Commandments to receive the death penalty. [See Chazon Ish on Bava Kama ch. 10 part 16: since the witnesses and judges do not accept the Yoke of Heaven and the Seven Laws, they are not kosher for Noahide Beit Din, so the court reverts to the civil law of the land; see also Igros Moshe Choshen Mishpat vol. 2 ch. 68.]
    (However, if the courts decide that it is necessary to apply the death penalty for murder in order to bolster the safety of the society, they are permitted, but not required, to execute convicted murderers.)

    1:12. Even if most of the Gentiles in a certain country do not abide by the Seven Noahide Laws as Divine commandments, but instead they observe the basic obligations of some of the Noahide Laws based on their own moral logic – for example, abiding by the prohibitions of theft and murder, and judging transgressors in an upright manner, by establishing their own courts to sentence [and punish] transgressors for theft, murder, injury and the like, and to decide in monetary cases – this is considered for them as a fulfillment of their commandment of Dinim.
    Even if these courts do not sentence violators of the Seven Laws to capital punishment, but rather keep them in jail or apply other punishments, they are nevertheless keeping the principle of the commandment of Dinim, in that they are keeping society from reverting to chaos, and the main purpose of this commandment was to establish a society that protects one individual from being wronged by another.

    Comment by Michael Schulman — October 14, 2013 @ 5:03 PM

  10. i am curious as to the sources, and further, how this is reasoned regarding the eternal covenant setup in Berei**** with Noach and all his descendants.

    Comment by Chad T Hawkins — October 14, 2013 @ 8:45 PM

  11. I was planning to sign the Noahide declaration infront of the beit din this summer with my daughter. Does anyone still do this as I was unable to attend in 2011.

    Comment by Marjorie Myer — November 4, 2013 @ 9:29 AM

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