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Ner Israel Rosh Yeshiva: Yesh Atid MK Rabbi Dov Lipman ‘Wicked’

What I do not understand is the harshness of his condemnation.
Yesh Atid MK Rabbi Dov Lipman speaking at the plenum hall, March 06, 2013.

Yesh Atid MK Rabbi Dov Lipman speaking at the plenum hall, March 06, 2013.
Photo Credit: Miriam Alster/FLASH90

* While initially it was thought that Rabbi Lipman called for shutting down schools which don’t teach the basic curriculum, Rabbi Lipman has clarified his position in the Baltimore Jewish Life. He was misquoted. Here is what he actually said:

The Israeli government should not fund institutions which don’t teach basic math and English. Yeshivos which don’t do so will not be closed down but they won’t receive government funding. It should be pointed out that there are numerous yeshivos which already take zero government money and continue to flourish.

Not a bit surprising.

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About the Author: Harry Maryles runs the blog "Emes Ve-Emunah" which focuses on current events and issues that effect the Jewish world in general and Orthodoxy in particular. It discuses Hashkafa and news events of the day - from a Centrist perspctive and a philosphy of Torah U'Mada. He can be reached at hmaryles@yahoo.com.


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11 Responses to “Ner Israel Rosh Yeshiva: Yesh Atid MK Rabbi Dov Lipman ‘Wicked’”

  1. Gideon Yavin says:

    Whether one chooses to study Torah only or a mix with secular is a personal decision. Contrary to the dysinformation published, 80% of the Chareidi community are Baalei Teshuva or Olim Chadashim with Tertiary education. These 80% work and pay taxes. Baalei Teshuva have all served in the Military. They choose to have a portion of their taxes used to finance the education system of their choice. Someone who falsley claims to represent the Chareidi community and the views of his Yeshiva and stirrs up the anti-Orthodox community and the Halachically disadvantaged, to rise up against this group to deprive them of their basic human rights and their democratic rights, can only be described as wicked. What is amazing is the Mr Lipman stood in front of German TV and falsely described his fellow Jews as wicked. There is no greater Chillul Hashem then that. It is only right that, even if you disagree with them and even of you feel that way, measure fo measure he would be labeled the same.

  2. Welldone Gideon,send the best to your mom and Caren an kids

  3. I consider an adult male who attacks and spits on my daughter a "wicked person" so I don't think he described them falsely. He also didn't mention any names. What basic human rights is he depriving them of? No, I don't think measure for measure he should be labeled the same. Where do you get your statistics that 80% of hareidim work and pay taxes?

  4. David Willig says:

    No one is ever banned for Right wing Chareidi positions, while people are banned for attempting to be more realistic position. We have Gresham's law, with counterfeit Judaism driving out honest authentic thinking.

  5. David Willig says:

    No one is ever banned for Right wing Chareidi positions, while people are banned for attempting to be more realistic position. We have Gresham's law, with counterfeit Judaism driving out honest authentic thinking.

  6. David Willig says:

    No one is ever banned for Right wing Chareidi positions, while people are banned for attempting to be more realistic position. We have Gresham's law, with counterfeit Judaism driving out honest authentic thinking.

  7. David Willig says:

    No one is ever banned for Right wing Chareidi positions, while people are banned for attempting to be more realistic position. We have Gresham's law, with counterfeit Judaism driving out honest authentic thinking.

  8. Gideon Yavin says:

    1. I was there and I followed the developments from before they became public. I was in contact with Dov before and I tried to explain to him that his approach is inciting further violence! 2. I am yet to hear who was spat on. I know that your daughter wasn't and the one who was pimped by her mother on international media as the symbol of sinas chinam wasn't. What also came through is that all the people involved are PR professionals who saw an opportunity to make a name for themselves by stirring up Anti-Chareidi hate. 3. The label of Rasha is very appropriate here. There is a derech Halimud that anybody going to a Yeshiva like Ner-Yisrael should know. That is, you don't go on a fishing trip, quoting random opinions out of context, just because the fit your political agenda or ideology. Every concept has to originate from Moshe Rabbeinu, and be passed down from Rosh Yeshiva to Rosh Yeshuiva. A person who is disqualified by the Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshiva that ordained him is a Zero. To go out against the entire Torah community and feed the anti-Torah lobby with fuel to drive Yeshiva bochrim out of Yeshivot and to the Army is the same as the apostates that fed the inquisition etc. A person who misquotes the Rambam (Shehet Yamim Taavod = Mitzvah to work) and the Smag out of context is making a fruit salad just as the Reform Movement did. It is not Torah, it is Avodah Zara.

  9. 1. I was also there before it became public. I sat vigil at night so our school would not be ransacked any further. They had already become violent before Dov Lipman said "boo". Of course if Dov Had not continued his approach, there may have been more violence or the reshaim that attacked and spat on the kids may now have the school because our mayor capitulates to extremist hareidi violence.

    2. I don't believe that an 8 yr old was "pimped" out by her mother to confront a bunch of angry adult males. I believe she was spat on. A classmate of my daughter's had an egg thrown at her. My daughter and the other girls that live in RBS were not allowed to walk to the bus stop by themselves. Under directives of the police they were not allowed to use the closest bus stop to the school (which BTW has a shelter) because the police were scared the girls might be attacked. Instead they had to cross the road and walk up the hill to wait in the sun.

    3. I am grateful to Dov Lipman for helping force these hooligans to back down.

    4. Back up your statement about quoting ramdom opinions out of context. The Yeshiva changed; the current Rosh Yeshiva does not share the opinions of the Rosh Yeshiva who ordained Rabbi Lipman. In fact, the current Rosh Yeshiva apologised for calling Dov a rasha and acknowledged he was acting lesheim shamayim (but he said that Rabbi Lipman is misguided), so now it's just you calling him a rasha.

    5 .He is not against the entire Torah community and never said the yeshivot should be closed down. He said yeshivot ketanot that refuse to teach core secular subjects should not be state funded. Presumably he is doing this so that these children will be able to earn a parnassa when they are adults and will not either accept Tzedaka or steal when they grow up.

  10. Gideon Yavin says:

    Yes. It was all a case of delinquents Vs delinquents. 1. The saga started 3 years earlier when a legally justified objection to the building of the school, by the neighboring residents, who have first rights to the property was squashed using political muscle. Clearly a case of ideology is more important the the Law. ALL The Chareidi Rabbis instructed their followers not to get involved in conflict or intimidation. Lipman was there and not only lied about it, but, as you can see in some of the footage that he published, he led a mixed group right to the local resident's homes, far away from the school, to hurl insults at them and incite them.

  11. I quote Rav Feldman: "Since he is a shogeg I cannot call him a rosha and I retract my statement and apologise for calling him a rosha."

    Since neither you nor I cannot decide of our own accord that he is or isn't a rasha and since Rav Feldman has decided he is NOT a rasha, you should defer to Rav Feldman and acknowledge that he is not a rasha.

    No one says he withdrew the statement to prevent a rift between an MK and the yeshiva (other than you). It is your opinion and that of some others in the hareidi world that Dov Lipman's opinions and efforts are contrary the Torah. Not everyone learned in Torah agrees with that opinion, and it is motzi shem ra to call him a malshin.

    No, the saga was not a sad story. It was a criminal story of law abiding citizens vs. hooligans who consider themselves above the law and don't consider us Jews and therefore feel they have no obligation to us either legally or halachically (a disgusting concept towards goyim and kal vachomer to Jews).

    The neighbouring residents have NO claim to whatsoever to the property irrespective of whether you think this is just or unjust. The school had been zoned to be built there 10 years earlier. The area was not zoned as a hareidi area. This hareidi group's moving into the area does not give them the right to demand resources which have been promised to other communities (who also live in the areas neighbouring the school) and have been waiting patiently and paying taxes for these resources for many years. They behaved like spoiled brats, and in typical Israeli histadrut fashion when the hareidi community's request, made 3 years before the school opened, was rejected (and for good reason), some members of the community decided to use force to get their way. This caused much sinat chinam which you now attribute entirely to Dov Lipman.

    I don't know that "all" the rabbis told their people not to get involved in violence, but their people sure didn't listen. I also noticed that NO hareidi Rabbis came out and condemned their violence and disgusting behaviour. It sickens me that that they invoke Hashem's name to evict my daughter because she is polluting "their pure neighbourhood".

    You have acknowledged that these thugs don't even live near the school. (You wrote, "As you can see in some of the footage he [Dov Lipman] published, he led a mixed group right to the local residents homes, far away from the school.") What about your claim of "neighboring residents, who have first rights to the property"? They aren't neighbouring residents. They're just xenophobic goons who decided that it is a Hareidi area and decided to try to make a land grab.

    I have no respect for them and think they should be behind bars, not protected by their politicians. The reason the police don't arrest more stone throwers and garbage burners and other goons is because it can become a huge political nightmare. But they should all be charged, tried and locked away. I don't know much about the incident, but so what that the group was mixed? It wasn't mixed to bother the hareidim. It was mixed because there were women who wanted to demonstrate against them too. They didn't throw rotten eggs, and faeces all over their homes. I certainly didn't feel any ahavat hinam for them.

    They must have believed there was danger because the police were there every day for quite a while. No, it wasn't dangerous to send the kids to the school. It was dangerous to let them walk around a Jewish neighbourhood unaccompanied, so there were adults accompanying the girls for weeks after the police stopped, and you're right, we didn't let the girls use the stop which was dangerous. That would have been irresponsible.

    You obviously haven't spoken to Naama Margolese or her mother if you don't believe anyone was spat on. Do you deny that she was screamed at and insulted? Is that not enough to get upset at? She didn't offer her services as a media sensation. She was picked on by the sikrikim and then you don't like what happened in the media thereafter. (She probably did private trauma counseling, but you wouldn't know because it's private). It is a pity that the international media got hold of the story, but I don't think it was so bad to have our dirty laundry aired (in Israel). A lot of soul searching has been done on both sides which may not have been performed otherwise.

    Yes taking the law into your own hands is a serious crime. So why didn't the Hareidi rabbanim not come out to oppose these violent, law breaking sikrikim? Instead they made a hafgana in opposition.
    I quote Daniel Edelman (having lightly edited what he wrote):"Brotherly love is a wonderful sentiment, and it should be felt for all Jews, religious or otherwise. But it always amazes me that many twist the story of Kamza and Bar Kamza (Gittin 55-56) as support for the view that the story is about "sinat chinam" resulting in the destruction of the Beit Hamikidash. I recommend you review that Gemara again, and you will see that the story stands for the principle that inaction and scrupulosity on the part of the rabbis even in the face of a tremendous chillul Hashem is what destroyed the Beit Hamikdash.

    "That is, there is more to the story than just one man throwing another out of a party. What the Gemarah then says is that when Bar Kamza saw that the rabbis were sitting there and did nothing about it, he concluded that they must have acceded to the conduct. Bar Kamza, therefore, went to the Roman authorities, saying the Jews were rebelling. The Romans Emperor asked how could he know that there was a rebellion and the response was to send them a sacrifice and see if it will be offered. After the emperor was sent, Bar Kamza made a blemish on it so that it could not be brought as a kosher sacrifice.

    "Then, the Gemarah informs us that some were inclined to offer the sacrifice in any event not to offend the Roman government, but R. Zecharia said that couldn't be done lest people think blemished animals be offered as sacrifices. The Gemarah concludes with the statement of R. Yochanan that: "Through the scrupulousness of R. Zechariya our house has been destroyed, our Temple burnt and we exiled from our land."

    "The issue is not there are loonies who are terrorizing you and by extension all of us. The issue is that the Rabbis are doing nothing about it. It is, therefore, not sinat chinam which propels people to challenge the haredi community and especially its rabbinic leadership to action. It's a genine understanding of what caused the churban."

    Yes, the yeshiva has become more hareidi over the years. They still have a secular studies track and arrangements with many universities, so Dov Lipman is espousing exactly what the yeshiva practices. He is in favour of kids learning in yeshivot but learning core secular subjects too.

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