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November 28, 2014 / 6 Kislev, 5775
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12 Good Reasons Why Secular Israelis Reject Haredim

Why is it so common for Haredim to pin the motives for secular hatred against them only on their critics' ignorance and anti-Semitism?
An IDF exclusively Haredi infantry unit training at a range.

An IDF exclusively Haredi infantry unit training at a range.
Photo Credit: Yaakov Naumi/Flash90

Rabbi Dovid Bloch is the official spokesman for the Nahal Haredi, the Netzah Yehuda IDF battalion, was among its founders, and is the spiritual guide (mashgiach ruchani) of its recruits. This part of his record is impeccable, as far as secular Israelis are concerned. Rabbi Bloch studied at Yeshivat Ponivez and for many years served as Rosh Yeshiva of the Midrashia in Pardes Hanah. He currently is a Ram (Rosh Metivta) in Nahora Yeshiva High School and a Rosh Kollel in Jerusalem. That makes his record impeccable for Haredim. This means that his opinion carries a great deal of weight in both camps, and that should give all of us reason to hope for a good resolution of the Equal Burden issue which has been troubling coalition talks these past three weeks.

Now, I ask the reader not to take away from the following text the position that the Haredim are the only ones to blame for the severe gap on so many levels between the two societies inside Israel. But it’s refreshing to read a respected Haredi source with a clear eyed view of the Haredi contribution to the problem.

In an article titled “Maybe the Secular Are Right?” that was published this winter in the Haredi Kikar Hashabbat, Rabbi Bloch asks: “Why is it so common for Haredi pundits and public figures to pin the motives for secular hatred against Haredim only on the formers’ bad qualities, their emptiness, anti-Semitism and the ignorant man’s hatred for the scholar? And another question we should ask ourselves is whether, in some cases, the value benefits from this conduct or another are worth the consequent heavy price of hilul Hashem (desecration of the Holy Name).

Rabbi Bloch then poses 12 questions which he encourages his Haredi readers to ponder.

1. We’ve chosen, for understandable educational reasons, to withdraw and live in exclusively Haredi cities and neighborhoods, avoiding as much as possible any social contact with the secular.

This is legitimate and understandable, but as a result they don’t really know us, amd so they naturally view us as bizarre, in our manner of dress, our behavior, and our language. This creates aversion and alienation. Why, then, we are angry at them for treating us this way?

2. We chose, for educational reasons—although some of us really believe it—to teach our children that all secular Israelis are sinners, vacuous, with no values, and corrupt.

This could possibly be a legitimate view, but, then, why are we shocked when the secular, in return, teach their own children that the Haredim are all primitive, with outdated and despicable values?

3. We have chosen, for the sake of the preservation of Torah in Israel, to prevent our sons from participating in carrying the heavy burden of security, and instead tasked them with learning Torah.

Of course we could not give that up, but why are we outraged and offended when the secular, who do not recognize nor understand this need—or rather most of them are familiar with the issue, but argue that there should be quotas—see us as immoral, and some despise us as a result?

4. We chose for our sons who do not belong, by their personal inclination or learning skills to the group of Torah scholars (Yeshiva bums and worse), to also evade enlistment—including into perfectly kosher army units. And when it comes to the individuals who have joined the Haredi Nahal, we do not praise them, but despise them instead, and we certainly show them no gratitude, while the Haredi press ignores them—in the best case.

Why, then, are we outraged when the secular don’t believe our argument, that the purpose of keeping yeshiva students from enlisting, is to maintain Torah study and not simply the Haredim’s unwillingness to bear the burden?

5. We chose to teach our children not to work for a living, and to devote all their time to Torah study. Clear enough, but, then, why are we shocked when the secular—who do not consider Torah study an all encompassing value—feel that we are an economic burden on their necks, as a mere 38% of us take part in the labor force, and they hate us for it.

6. We chose not to teach our children any labor skills, and we condemn those who do pursue a profession. As a result our kolelim include all of those who do not belong among the scholars and still prefer not to work for a living.

About the Author: Yori Yanover has been a working journalist since age 17, before he enlisted and worked for Ba'Machane Nachal. Since then he has worked for Israel Shelanu, the US supplement of Yedioth, JCN18.com, USAJewish.com, Lubavitch News Service, Arutz 7 (as DJ on the high seas), and the Grand Street News. He has published Dancing and Crying, a colorful and intimate portrait of the last two years in the life of the late Lubavitch Rebbe, (in Hebrew), and two fun books in English: The Cabalist's Daughter: A Novel of Practical Messianic Redemption, and How Would God REALLY Vote.


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61 Responses to “12 Good Reasons Why Secular Israelis Reject Haredim”

  1. Kenneth Mathews says:

    There are absolutely no good reasons to justify enmity or hatred between Jews. The author lists reasons to justify rejecting Haredim. Someone could just as easily type a list of reasons for rejecting secular Jews. Social problems and conflicts between Jews should be solved with patience, mutual concern for each other and for Israel, mercy, truth, Torah and fear of Hashem. Senseless hatred only produces division, endless strife, and weakness before the face of Israel's enemies.

  2. Kenneth Mathews says:

    There are absolutely no good reasons to justify enmity or hatred between Jews. The author lists reasons to justify rejecting Haredim. Someone could just as easily type a list of reasons for rejecting secular Jews. Social problems and conflicts between Jews should be solved with patience, mutual concern for each other and for Israel, mercy, truth, Torah and fear of Hashem. Senseless hatred only produces division, endless strife, and weakness before the face of Israel's enemies.

  3. While there are definitely some broad strokes here that don't apply to all Chreidim, there is a lot of truth to what he says. Further, I wouldn't limit these feelings to only secular Israelis, as most apply to the vast majority of Israelis from totally secular to religious Zionist and even some left-leaning modern Chareidim.

  4. the Charedim r right to do what they need, assimilation in Eretz Isroel is within the tzioni system of zionists, I see no solution, except this, stop making anti Torah and anti demokratic things like forcing Charedim to army or any service related, and stop blaming them for all problems, Israel needs to be more Orthodox secular lifestyle will die soon, secular Jews r afraid of Charedim like a a Jewis person who does not want to say hello to Hashem and does not realize that without Charedim Jews would die out.

  5. war must continue, because its in Torah and Tanach, prophets and judges warned us and Jews still making same mistakes, after becoming normal then Moshiyach will come, otherwise no solution.

  6. Oriana Cottard says:

    So true Kenneth

  7. Oriana Cottard says:

    To talk about it we do have to talk basic. We as Jews we are ONE NATION, so don´t let us forget it. Both Chassidim, Haredim, Seculares or what ever we call it, we all are the same people THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF G-D. So fare we are in agreement with that? So now the second topic. Who has the right to juge one and another? The conservativs or the seculares? No matter what we will do or not, our country will be a big mixed up of all the Jews from all the nations who have made their Aliyah, to be HOME, NO? What about to work out to accept each other and think about Peace between us Jews? WILL IT BE SO HARD? What, that we are over it Sephardies Jews and Achkénaz Jews? Well Well, there is anought place for all of us in Israel and have peace too. It is all about what do we whant and how shall we applicated this issue, if we call it so? I personaly don´t have any problem with our Haredim and been many time even in Meashaerim soo what? I am a Jew and will not matter what stand for our people, our country and for the best of it all and to love our people. I am not the one who can Juge, only G-d can Juge, Only Him soo….What about that now? Am Yisrael chai chai Chai and so very proud if too.

  8. Oriana Cottard says:

    Do we not have enought problem with our enemies to start to dislike each others between Jews????

  9. Oriana Cottard says:

    and don´t tell me that all the seculares we ahve in the country makes it only good for our Land? What is best honestly? Stand up there you are and ask yourself: WHAT IS A JEW? WHO ARE THE JEWS, BOTH OUTSIDE OUR COUNTRY AND INSIDE IT? HOW DO YOU DETERMIN A JEW? Is there any who is more Jew than other-s? As you see, we all are the Jewish people no matter how we turn it in our though….so was it, so it is and so shall it be….

  10. Mildred Bilt says:

    Words words words words. The Rabbi stated how it is and the people respond;babble, babble, babble. What words will you have when Jew strikes Jew? Babble, babble? This is the history of the Jewish people. A wise man states facts and the people smile and babble, waiting for a messhiach to take care of everything. There is no messhiach.

  11. Oriana Cottard says:

    Agree 101 % with that…

  12. Oriana Cottard says:

    Many of the jews I know outside the country, are so against both the Chassidim, the Haredim, all militaries as well the seculare life Israel has got now special in Tel-Aviv as they were saying last time we talked. We were in fact at our synagogua and I came as usely with my covered head and they reacted over it. Only men had their kippa on their head. You can´t imagine the hot discussion we had? I was so chocked to hear all I heard but….what I can do. I know they will never move in israel and efter have been many times they don´t want anymore to go there either, in my big sadness but…what can I do about it? it is just one exemple amon many others…..

  13. Oriana Cottard says:

    sadly enought to let us remain how our people been influensed by the war, the media and without to deny….the developpement/evolution of our country???? We have a big job from of us, this is a fact we can ignore about. Many are steel making their Aliyah and it will more and more increase the level of the tension in the country….if not we do something about it. I start to think that NOT ALL OUR PEOPLE WILL MOVE- BACK IN ISRAEL….??? May i have wrong but…..

  14. Elke Weiss says:

    Incredible article. I think it's a good thing for people in a fight to soul search and see what they are guilty. If secular and Haredi leaders both critique themselves, they show a willingness to find common ground. I agree on many of the points, it's broad strokes, but it's very much acknowledging how secular people are feeling and it's validating that there is a problem. Once you admit there's a problem, you can find a solution. I hope both sides do.

  15. Dan Silagi says:

    Yori Yanover just mentioned 12 excellent reasons for secular Jews such as myself to despise Haredim, and not just in Israel. To this "dirty dozen" let me add a couple more:

    1. They speak Yiddish in the USA, even those who were born here. Why won't they speak English? The reason, of course, is they don't what others (especially non-Haredi Jews) to understand what they're saying.

    2. One particular vile Haredi Jew, Maris Friedman, said in Australia recently that the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves, by not behaving as Friedman would have preferred. Friedman is hardly the first so-called "Jew" to make such an excreable comment and probably won't be the last. So six million Jews were murdered because my father ate lobster and my mother a cheeseburger? Had Friedman said that directly to my face, he'd be eating a knuckle sandwich.

  16. Elke Weiss says:

    So Arkadiy, the IDF is expected to defend Hareidim but the Hareidim owe nothing to the IDF?

  17. Elke Weiss heredem serve in other ways, even if you do not believe in Hashem, Israel can't be defended without His help

  18. Dan, you seems to be very hateful person with agenda…
    Look within yourself and not others

  19. Dan Silagi says:

    Yeah, I have an agenda. Two of my relatives who made aliyah were killed in the '73 war defending haredim (and other Israelsi) while the haredim didn't do diddly-squat.

  20. Charlie Hall says:

    I know lots of charedim in American and they all speak English along with Yiddish. And I know non-charedim who speak Yiddish. Nothing wrong with keeping an important Jewish language alive!

  21. Charlie Hall says:

    Thank you, Yori, for sharing this.

  22. Dan Silagi says:

    Yeah, most can speak English. And even I know a little Yiddish. But walk down the streets of New Square or Kiryas Joel and listen to all the English that's spoken. The Charedim use Yiddish to exclude themselves from everyone else, including secular Jews. You cannot deny that.

  23. Myriam Obadia says:

    I agree with the author. Asking the questions isn't supporting a divorce between Haredim and secular Israeli. On the contrary, it is the 1st step towards true understanding and true sharing of responsibility.

  24. Anthony Kane says:

    It might be worth a few minutes to show how empty these questions are.

    First the intro:

    "Rabbi Dovid Bloch is the official spokesman for the Nahal Haredi, the Netzah Yehuda IDF battalion, was among its founders…That makes his record impeccable for Haredim".

    This makes him posul for Haredim. So that's the source of these questions.

    Let's go one by one:

    1. "We've chosen, for understandable educational reasons, to withdraw and live in exclusively Haredi cities… they naturally view us as bizarre, in our manner of dress, our behavior, and our language. This creates aversion and alienation".

    This statement is pure ignorance. I spent much of the last two years in western Michigan. I met people in their nineties who had never before seen a Jew. At all times I was treated with the utmost respect. Yes, they were curious and interested but their was no "aversion and alienation".

    The "aversion and alienation" is because we are living our lives according to the Torah and they are not. In their minds, our adherence to our life style is a direct indictment of their life style. Some Haredim may care enough about them to be bothered by what they do. Most of us just wish they would leave us alone.

    2. "We chose—to teach our children that all secular Israelis are sinners, vacuous, with no values, and corrupt. "

    If you are talking about the political leadership that is true. But I thought the secular Jews felt the same way.

    As far as "secular Israelis are sinners", this is definitional. The Torah defines right and wrong, we do not. Therefore, by definition, secular Israelis can be very nice people, and almost all of them are. But they can't be good people.

    3. "We have chosen, for the sake of the preservation of Torah in Israel, to prevent our sons from participating in carrying the heavy burden of security, and instead tasked them with learning Torah."

    Let's talk about defending the country. Did you ever wonder why the military strategists at West Point teach the cadets about all the historic battles from Alexander on, but do not teach about any of the Arab Israeli wars? The reason is that they can't figure out what happened. According to all the rules of warfare, Israel should have lost ever war.

    Was it part of the IDF's plan that in 1973 the Egyptian army who drove through the entire south of the country virtually would stop just outside of Tel Aviv and give the IDF time to group and counter attack? Was it their plan that Saddam Hussein would launch 39 missiles at the heart of the country and almost no one would get hurt? One missile killed 250 people in Saudi Arabia, but not here. The IDF did that?

    Unless you can explain what the best military minds living today can't figure out, which is why we are still around, don't be so sure about who is defending who.

    "there should be quotas" Okay, that's reasonable. 10% is a good number. It's traditional. The Christians call it tithing, we call it maaser.

    Since there are 12 million Jews in the world, there should be 1.2 million learning full time. Uh oh. Maybe we need to draft secular Israelis to make this quota. It seems they are not carrying their share of the burden.

    For 2000 years Jews have not had an army. We have proven that we do not need the IDF to survive. You think the IDF doesn't need us? What's your proof?

  25. Anthony Kane says:

    10. "The Haredi press will never offer any praise of or express support for secular Israelis who perform good deeds".

    This may be purely my opinion but I don't think the word "press" can take the adjective "haredi." It's like the "kosher shrimp" that they have in the US. If is is "shrimp" then in can't be kosher and if it is "kosher" it can't be shrimp.

    11. "We would not agree, under any condition, that secular Israelis turn up in our schools to teach our children heresy, and we would have kept them from putting up stands with books of heresy in our areas. Why, then, do we not understand when the secular do not agree that we seduce her children into denying their parents' heresy?"

    This is an easy one. Let's use a simple word substitution to illustrate the difference. Let's replace the word heresy with heroin and see how the sentence reads.

    "We would not agree, under any condition, that secular Israelis turn up in our schools to GIVE our children HEROIN, and we would have kept them from putting up stands DISTRIBUTING HEROIN in our areas. Why, then, do we not understand when the secular do not agree that we seduce her children into REJECTING their parents' HEROIN HABIT?"

    12. "We do not agree that secular people move into Haredi neighborhoods. So where do we get the arrogance and audacity to call anti-Semites those secular who don't agree that Haredim move near their homes, in secular neighborhoods?"

    Not sure what this means. Do you mean "near their homes" as in Bnei Brak is near Ramat Gan? Or do you mean on the same street?

    I can't think of any reason why someone Haredi would want to live in a secular neighborhood. Except maybe because the housing in Hareidi neighborhoods is so much more expensive and the government traditionally has limited most new Hareidi housing projects to over the green line areas or places that are not so secure. Kiryat Sefer was build as a buffer for Modi'in. Emmanuel and Betar are in not so nice neighborhoods.

    Keep in mind that Israel is about the size of New Jersey with the population less than New York City. There is plenty of room here for housing. Why then is it so hard to get affordable housing? I've heard that it could be because many Keneset.
    members own property property and if the open up housing to meet the needs of the population the value of their investments will go down. But I don't know this for sure because I don't read the newspapers (see #10).

    As for the author's butchering of the Rambam, keep in mind that in the Rambam's generation Torah scholars were able to support themselves and still maintain their scholarship. Although the Rambam himself did not do this until later in his life, after his brother died, this was the norm. Several generations, Rabeinu Yehuda, the son of the Rosh, began to take support from the community so he could maintain his level of scholarship. Since that time, the world communities have supported Torah scholarship.

    However, the Kesef Mishna has an entirely different understanding than the author has. He explains in what context the Rambam was writing and how what we do today is not only acceptable, but commendable even according to the Rambam. Of course, I wouldn't expect the author to have read the Kesef Mishna and figure out what any 15 year old can read. He was probably on some drill somewhere when the Yeshiva got to it.

    In case the author does want to see what the Kesef Mishna says, I'll give him a little hint to get him started. Open the Mishna Torah to the area you just quoted. The Kesef Mishna is the smaller print surrounding the Rambam's text.

  26. Anthony Kane says:

    4. "evade enlistment— into perfectly kosher army units" "the purpose of keeping yeshiva students from enlisting, is to maintain Torah study".

    Let's look at the history. Ben Gurion established the army for multiple purposes Defending the country was only one of them. A more important reason was to take Jews with diverse backgrounds from all over the world a create a vehicle to mold them into a unified people. More specifically a unified secular people "like other nations." For secular Jews that is the Zionist dream.

    Religious Jews have another name for it. We call it shmad- the attempt to uproot religious Judaism from the world. We know this well. The Greeks tried to do this, The Romans tried. The Church. This was part of the Czar's plan to handle the Jewish problem in Russia of the 1800's. Now the secular Israeli leaders are joining in. Their self professed tool is the army.

    How can there be "perfectly kosher army units" when the agenda of the army is to uproot Judaism? So the author is wrong again. "The purpose of keeping yeshiva students from enlisting," is not "to maintain Torah study" It's to keep our children Jewish. Nothing less.

    Recently, there was an incident in the army where as part of the "entertainment" they had women singing to the troops. A few members of the "perfectly kosher army units" tried not to attend since this is a violation of Torah law. They were ordered to go anyway. I suppose the commander felt that not having religious soldiers violate the Torah at an entertainment event endangered this country's national interests.

    So what exactly is the purpose of the army? To defend the country? We're going to have girls sing the enemy into submission?

    5. "The secular feel that we are an economic burden on their necks".

    Okay I'll admit it. I have taken money from Misrad Hadatot while learning in kollel. And on those months when the government paid we did live high off the secular society. Once a month my wife and I spent an afternoon celebrating our $150/month check at the supermarket buying food.

    The government funds other forms of higher education and no one complains that Art history students are parasites. Jews have always valued education. Even the weakest kollel students spend more time learning than the best PhD candidates. You care to dispute this? I've lived in both worlds. What's your background?

    The reason "a mere 38% of us take part in the labor force" is because of #4. The only way to stay out of the army is to stay in kollel full time, even for those who would prefer to work. That's their law not ours. Staying out of the army is not a matter of laziness. It's a matter of survival.

    6. see #4 and #5.

    7. "We chose not to educate our children to show gratitude to the soldiers who risked their lives and were killed or injured for our sake" nor do we "do not mention them in any way by any special day or prayer".

    So how accurate is this? First let's discuss what our secular brothers do. Twice a year a siren goes off and people stop what they are doing and for one minute they stand up out of respect. This is done on Yom Hazikaron for those who died in the Holocaust and for soldiers who died in battle.

    A few years ago I was in Netanya on the promenade overlooking the sea when the siren went off. And as predicted the people on the beach stopped fondling each other and the elderly woman on the bench near us put down her novel and every one stood up for one minute. When it was over they all went back to what they were doing.

    This is what the Haredi do.

    Every year we have a three week period of mourning beginning with a fast in which we don't eat or drink anything. We say additional prayers both in the morning and the afternoon. Then over the next three weeks we have increasing degrees of mourning in which we don't listen to music or celebrate, don't wear new clothing. Toward the end of this period we stop bathing, eating meat and drinking wine. We end the period of mourning in a fast in which we don't eat or drink anything for 25 hours, we don't wear leather shoes, we sit on the ground for all of the night and most of the day. Many people don't sleep in a bed. And we add lengthy prayers.

    We do this for the millions killed by the Babylonians, the millions killed by the Romans, the hundreds of thousands murdered in Christian Europe. We do this for those who died in the Holocaust and we include those soldiers who died defending our land.

    That's what we do to mourn all those who have suffered or were tortured and killed throughout our history.

    However, I think it's great that our secular brothers stop what they are doing and dedicate a minute of their lives a couple times a year to think of something other than themselves. It is definitely a step in the right direction.

    8. "When extremist, delusional groups behave in ways that besmirch the name of God—e.g. the spitting in Beit Shemesh, dancing during the memorial siren, burning the national flag—our rabbis chose not to condemn them, clearly and consistently ( except for a few faint statements here and there). Why, then, are we explaining away the fact that the secular believe we all support those terrible acts?"

    And when secular Jews sick dogs on religious people in Petach Tikva, when the Jerusalem police tie up and beat religious prisoners, (yes, I have seen the wounds) and when Jewish grave yards are preserved everywhere in the world except in Israel and the non extremist secular leaders society don't protest and in many cases promote this behavior are we to believe that they support these acts?

    Our extremists are a lot less dangerous than yours. They sit in their our groups, complain a lot and don't act out much unless directly attacked. You elect your extremists government positions, put them in the Keneset, and make them judges in the courts.

    As for the spitting incident, this did not happen because a religious zealot walked into Talpiot to antagonize the secular Jews there. It happened because the secular Jews went into the religious neighborhood with the sole intent of antagonizing the religious Jews living there. No, we don't condone what they do, but they are harmless when left alone. I wish I could say as much for your extremists.

    9. "We've opted to allow our public officials and pundits to curse out all the secular all the time. Why, then, when the secular media treat us the same way, are we offended and cry out that they're persecuting us?"

    Not sure what this is about. Religious Jews don't curse. It is forbidden for us to do so.

  27. Anthony Kane says:

    It might be worth a few minutes to show how empty these questions are.

    First the intro:

    "Rabbi Dovid Bloch is the official spokesman for the Nahal Haredi, the Netzah Yehuda IDF battalion, was among its founders…That makes his record impeccable for Haredim".

    This makes him posul for Haredim. So that's the source of these questions.

    Let's go one by one:

    1. "We've chosen, for understandable educational reasons, to withdraw and live in exclusively Haredi cities… they naturally view us as bizarre, in our manner of dress, our behavior, and our language. This creates aversion and alienation".

    This statement is pure ignorance. I spent much of the last two years in western Michigan. I met people in their nineties who had never before seen a Jew. At all times I was treated with the utmost respect. Yes, they were curious and interested but their was no "aversion and alienation".

    The "aversion and alienation" is because we are living our lives according to the Torah and they are not. In their minds, our adherence to our life style is a direct indictment of their life style. Some Haredim may care enough about them to be bothered by what they do. Most of us just wish they would leave us alone.

    2. "We chose—to teach our children that all secular Israelis are sinners, vacuous, with no values, and corrupt. "

    If you are talking about the political leadership that is true. But I thought the secular Jews felt the same way.

    As far as "secular Israelis are sinners", this is definitional. The Torah defines right and wrong, we do not. Therefore, by definition, secular Israelis can be very nice people, and almost all of them are. But they can't be good people.

    3. "We have chosen, for the sake of the preservation of Torah in Israel, to prevent our sons from participating in carrying the heavy burden of security, and instead tasked them with learning Torah."

    Let's talk about defending the country. Did you ever wonder why the military strategists at West Point teach the cadets about all the historic battles from Alexander on, but do not teach about any of the Arab Israeli wars? The reason is that they can't figure out what happened. According to all the rules of warfare, Israel should have lost ever war.

    Was it part of the IDF's plan that in 1973 the Egyptian army who drove through the entire south of the country virtually would stop just outside of Tel Aviv and give the IDF time to group and counter attack? Was it their plan that Saddam Hussein would launch 39 missiles at the heart of the country and almost no one would get hurt? One missile killed 250 people in Saudi Arabia, but not here. The IDF did that?

    Unless you can explain what the best military minds living today can't figure out, which is why we are still around, don't be so sure about who is defending who.

    "there should be quotas" Okay, that's reasonable. 10% is a good number. It's traditional. The Christians call it tithing, we call it maaser.

    Since there are 12 million Jews in the world, there should be 1.2 million learning full time. Uh oh. Maybe we need to draft secular Israelis to make this quota. It seems they are not carrying their share of the burden.

    For 2000 years Jews have not had an army. We have proven that we do not need the IDF to survive. You think the IDF doesn't need us? What's your proof?

  28. Anthony Kane says:

    4. "evade enlistment— into perfectly kosher army units" "the purpose of keeping yeshiva students from enlisting, is to maintain Torah study".

    Let's look at the history. Ben Gurion established the army for multiple purposes Defending the country was only one of them. A more important reason was to take Jews with diverse backgrounds from all over the world a create a vehicle to mold them into a unified people. More specifically a unified secular people "like other nations." For secular Jews that is the Zionist dream.

    Religious Jews have another name for it. We call it shmad- the attempt to uproot religious Judaism from the world. We know this well. The Greeks tried to do this, The Romans tried. The Church. This was part of the Czar's plan to handle the Jewish problem in Russia of the 1800's. Now the secular Israeli leaders are joining in. Their self professed tool is the army.

    How can there be "perfectly kosher army units" when the agenda of the army is to uproot Judaism? So the author is wrong again. "The purpose of keeping yeshiva students from enlisting," is not "to maintain Torah study" It's to keep our children Jewish. Nothing less.

    Recently, there was an incident in the army where as part of the "entertainment" they had women singing to the troops. A few members of the "perfectly kosher army units" tried not to attend since this is a violation of Torah law. They were ordered to go anyway. I suppose the commander felt that not having religious soldiers violate the Torah at an entertainment event endangered this country's national interests.

    So what exactly is the purpose of the army? To defend the country? We're going to have girls sing the enemy into submission?

    5. "The secular feel that we are an economic burden on their necks".

    Okay I'll admit it. I have taken money from Misrad Hadatot while learning in kollel. And on those months when the government paid we did live high off the secular society. Once a month my wife and I spent an afternoon celebrating our $150/month check at the supermarket buying food.

    The government funds other forms of higher education and no one complains that Art history students are parasites. Jews have always valued education. Even the weakest kollel students spend more time learning than the best PhD candidates. You care to dispute this? I've lived in both worlds. What's your background?

    The reason "a mere 38% of us take part in the labor force" is because of #4. The only way to stay out of the army is to stay in kollel full time, even for those who would prefer to work. That's their law not ours. Staying out of the army is not a matter of laziness. It's a matter of survival.

    6. see #4 and #5.

    7. "We chose not to educate our children to show gratitude to the soldiers who risked their lives and were killed or injured for our sake" nor do we "do not mention them in any way by any special day or prayer".

    So how accurate is this? First let's discuss what our secular brothers do. Twice a year a siren goes off and people stop what they are doing and for one minute they stand up out of respect. This is done on Yom Hazikaron for those who died in the Holocaust and for soldiers who died in battle.

    A few years ago I was in Netanya on the promenade overlooking the sea when the siren went off. And as predicted the people on the beach stopped fondling each other and the elderly woman on the bench near us put down her novel and every one stood up for one minute. When it was over they all went back to what they were doing.

    This is what the Haredi do.

    Every year we have a three week period of mourning beginning with a fast in which we don't eat or drink anything. We say additional prayers both in the morning and the afternoon. Then over the next three weeks we have increasing degrees of mourning in which we don't listen to music or celebrate, don't wear new clothing. Toward the end of this period we stop bathing, eating meat and drinking wine. We end the period of mourning in a fast in which we don't eat or drink anything for 25 hours, we don't wear leather shoes, we sit on the ground for all of the night and most of the day. Many people don't sleep in a bed. And we add lengthy prayers.

    We do this for the millions killed by the Babylonians, the millions killed by the Romans, the hundreds of thousands murdered in Christian Europe. We do this for those who died in the Holocaust and we include those soldiers who died defending our land.

    That's what we do to mourn all those who have suffered or were tortured and killed throughout our history.

    However, I think it's great that our secular brothers stop what they are doing and dedicate a minute of their lives a couple times a year to think of something other than themselves. It is definitely a step in the right direction.

  29. Anthony Kane says:

    8. "When extremist, delusional groups behave in ways that besmirch the name of God—e.g. the spitting in Beit Shemesh, dancing during the memorial siren, burning the national flag—our rabbis chose not to condemn them, clearly and consistently ( except for a few faint statements here and there). Why, then, are we explaining away the fact that the secular believe we all support those terrible acts?"

    And when secular Jews sick dogs on religious people in Petach Tikva, when the Jerusalem police tie up and beat religious prisoners, (yes, I have seen the wounds) and when Jewish grave yards are preserved everywhere in the world except in Israel and the non extremist secular leaders society don't protest and in many cases promote this behavior are we to believe that they support these acts?

    Our extremists are a lot less dangerous than yours. They sit in their our groups, complain a lot and don't act out much unless directly attacked. You elect your extremists government positions, put them in the Keneset, and make them judges in the courts.

    As for the spitting incident, this did not happen because a religious zealot walked into Talpiot to antagonize the secular Jews there. It happened because the secular Jews went into the religious neighborhood with the sole intent of antagonizing the religious Jews living there. No, we don't condone what they do, but they are harmless when left alone. I wish I could say as much for your extremists.

    9. "We've opted to allow our public officials and pundits to curse out all the secular all the time. Why, then, when the secular media treat us the same way, are we offended and cry out that they're persecuting us?"

    Not sure what this is about. Religious Jews don't curse. It is forbidden for us to do so.

    10. "The Haredi press will never offer any praise of or express support for secular Israelis who perform good deeds".

    This may be purely my opinion but I don't think the word "press" can take the adjective "haredi." It's like the "kosher shrimp" that they have in the US. If is is "shrimp" then in can't be kosher and if it is "kosher" it can't be shrimp.

    11. "We would not agree, under any condition, that secular Israelis turn up in our schools to teach our children heresy, and we would have kept them from putting up stands with books of heresy in our areas. Why, then, do we not understand when the secular do not agree that we seduce her children into denying their parents' heresy?"

    This is an easy one. Let's use a simple word substitution to illustrate the difference. Let's replace the word heresy with heroin and see how the sentence reads.

    "We would not agree, under any condition, that secular Israelis turn up in our schools to GIVE our children HEROIN, and we would have kept them from putting up stands DISTRIBUTING HEROIN in our areas. Why, then, do we not understand when the secular do not agree that we seduce her children into REJECTING their parents' HEROIN HABIT?"

    12. "We do not agree that secular people move into Haredi neighborhoods. So where do we get the arrogance and audacity to call anti-Semites those secular who don't agree that Haredim move near their homes, in secular neighborhoods?"

    Not sure what this means. Do you mean "near their homes" as in Bnei Brak is near Ramat Gan? Or do you mean on the same street?

    I can't think of any reason why someone Haredi would want to live in a secular neighborhood. Except maybe because the housing in Hareidi neighborhoods is so much more expensive and the government traditionally has limited most new Hareidi housing projects to over the green line areas or places that are not so secure. Kiryat Sefer was build as a buffer for Modi'in. Emmanuel and Betar are in not so nice neighborhoods.

    Keep in mind that Israel is about the size of New Jersey with the population less than New York City. There is plenty of room here for housing. Why then is it so hard to get affordable housing? I've heard that it could be because many Keneset.
    members own property property and if the open up housing to meet the needs of the population the value of their investments will go down. But I don't know this for sure because I don't read the newspapers (see #10).

    As for the author's butchering of the Rambam, keep in mind that in the Rambam's generation Torah scholars were able to support themselves and still maintain their scholarship. Although the Rambam himself did not do this until later in his life, after his brother died, this was the norm. Several generations, Rabeinu Yehuda, the son of the Rosh, began to take support from the community so he could maintain his level of scholarship. Since that time, the world communities have supported Torah scholarship.

    However, the Kesef Mishna has an entirely different understanding than the author has. He explains in what context the Rambam was writing and how what we do today is not only acceptable, but commendable even according to the Rambam. Of course, I wouldn't expect the author to have read the Kesef Mishna and figure out what any 15 year old can read. He was probably on some drill somewhere when the Yeshiva got to it.

    In case the author does want to see what the Kesef Mishna says, I'll give him a little hint to get him started. Open the Mishna Torah to the area you just quoted. The Kesef Mishna is the smaller print surrounding the Rambam's text.

  30. Anthony Kane says:

    4. "evade enlistment— into perfectly kosher army units" "the purpose of keeping yeshiva students from enlisting, is to maintain Torah study".

    Let's look at the history. Ben Gurion established the army for multiple purposes Defending the country was only one of them. A more important reason was to take Jews with diverse backgrounds from all over the world a create a vehicle to mold them into a unified people. More specifically a unified secular people "like other nations." For secular Jews that is the Zionist dream.

    Religious Jews have another name for it. We call it shmad- the attempt to uproot religious Judaism from the world. We know this well. The Greeks tried to do this, The Romans tried. The Church. This was part of the Czar's plan to handle the Jewish problem in Russia of the 1800's. Now the secular Israeli leaders are joining in. Their self professed tool is the army.

    How can there be "perfectly kosher army units" when the agenda of the army is to uproot Judaism? So the author is wrong again. "The purpose of keeping yeshiva students from enlisting," is not "to maintain Torah study" It's to keep our children Jewish. Nothing less.

    Recently, there was an incident in the army where as part of the "entertainment" they had women singing to the troops. A few members of the "perfectly kosher army units" tried not to attend since this is a violation of Torah law. They were ordered to go anyway. I suppose the commander felt that not having religious soldiers violate the Torah at an entertainment event endangered this country's national interests.

    So what exactly is the purpose of the army? To defend the country? We're going to have girls sing the enemy into submission?

    5. "The secular feel that we are an economic burden on their necks".

    Okay I'll admit it. I have taken money from Misrad Hadatot while learning in kollel. And on those months when the government paid we did live high off the secular society. Once a month my wife and I spent an afternoon celebrating our $150/month check at the supermarket buying food.

    The government funds other forms of higher education and no one complains that Art history students are parasites. Jews have always valued education. Even the weakest kollel students spend more time learning than the best PhD candidates. You care to dispute this? I've lived in both worlds. What's your background?

    The reason "a mere 38% of us take part in the labor force" is because of #4. The only way to stay out of the army is to stay in kollel full time, even for those who would prefer to work. That's their law not ours. Staying out of the army is not a matter of laziness. It's a matter of survival.

    6. see #4 and #5.

    7. "We chose not to educate our children to show gratitude to the soldiers who risked their lives and were killed or injured for our sake" nor do we "do not mention them in any way by any special day or prayer".

    So how accurate is this? First let's discuss what our secular brothers do. Twice a year a siren goes off and people stop what they are doing and for one minute they stand up out of respect. This is done on Yom Hazikaron for those who died in the Holocaust and for soldiers who died in battle.

    A few years ago I was in Netanya on the promenade overlooking the sea when the siren went off. And as predicted the people on the beach stopped fondling each other and the elderly woman on the bench near us put down her novel and every one stood up for one minute. When it was over they all went back to what they were doing.

    This is what the Haredi do.

    Every year we have a three week period of mourning beginning with a fast in which we don't eat or drink anything. We say additional prayers both in the morning and the afternoon. Then over the next three weeks we have increasing degrees of mourning in which we don't listen to music or celebrate, don't wear new clothing. Toward the end of this period we stop bathing, eating meat and drinking wine. We end the period of mourning in a fast in which we don't eat or drink anything for 25 hours, we don't wear leather shoes, we sit on the ground for all of the night and most of the day. Many people don't sleep in a bed. And we add lengthy prayers.

    We do this for the millions killed by the Babylonians, the millions killed by the Romans, the hundreds of thousands murdered in Christian Europe. We do this for those who died in the Holocaust and we include those soldiers who died defending our land.

    That's what we do to mourn all those who have suffered or were tortured and killed throughout our history.

    However, I think it's great that our secular brothers stop what they are doing and dedicate a minute of their lives a couple times a year to think of something other than themselves. It is definitely a step in the right direction.

  31. Anthony Kane says:

    It might be worth a few minutes to show how empty these questions are.

    First the intro:

    "Rabbi Dovid Bloch is the official spokesman for the Nahal Haredi, the Netzah Yehuda IDF battalion, was among its founders…That makes his record impeccable for Haredim".

    This makes him posul for Haredim. So that's the source of these questions.

    Let's go one by one:

    1. "We've chosen, for understandable educational reasons, to withdraw and live in exclusively Haredi cities… they naturally view us as bizarre, in our manner of dress, our behavior, and our language. This creates aversion and alienation".

    This statement is pure ignorance. I spent much of the last two years in western Michigan. I met people in their nineties who had never before seen a Jew. At all times I was treated with the utmost respect. Yes, they were curious and interested but their was no "aversion and alienation".

    The "aversion and alienation" is because we are living our lives according to the Torah and they are not. In their minds, our adherence to our life style is a direct indictment of their life style. Some Haredim may care enough about them to be bothered by what they do. Most of us just wish they would leave us alone.

    2. "We chose—to teach our children that all secular Israelis are sinners, vacuous, with no values, and corrupt. "

    If you are talking about the political leadership that is true. But I thought the secular Jews felt the same way.

    As far as "secular Israelis are sinners", this is definitional. The Torah defines right and wrong, we do not. Therefore, by definition, secular Israelis can be very nice people, and almost all of them are. But they can't be good people.

    3. "We have chosen, for the sake of the preservation of Torah in Israel, to prevent our sons from participating in carrying the heavy burden of security, and instead tasked them with learning Torah."

    Let's talk about defending the country. Did you ever wonder why the military strategists at West Point teach the cadets about all the historic battles from Alexander on, but do not teach about any of the Arab Israeli wars? The reason is that they can't figure out what happened. According to all the rules of warfare, Israel should have lost ever war.

    Was it part of the IDF's plan that in 1973 the Egyptian army who drove through the entire south of the country virtually would stop just outside of Tel Aviv and give the IDF time to group and counter attack? Was it their plan that Saddam Hussein would launch 39 missiles at the heart of the country and almost no one would get hurt? One missile killed 250 people in Saudi Arabia, but not here. The IDF did that?

    Unless you can explain what the best military minds living today can't figure out, which is why we are still around, don't be so sure about who is defending who.

    "there should be quotas" Okay, that's reasonable. 10% is a good number. It's traditional. The Christians call it tithing, we call it maaser.

    Since there are 12 million Jews in the world, there should be 1.2 million learning full time. Uh oh. Maybe we need to draft secular Israelis to make this quota. It seems they are not carrying their share of the burden.

    For 2000 years Jews have not had an army. We have proven that we do not need the IDF to survive. You think the IDF doesn't need us? What's your proof?

  32. Anthony Kane says:

    4. "evade enlistment— into perfectly kosher army units" "the purpose of keeping yeshiva students from enlisting, is to maintain Torah study".

    Let's look at the history. Ben Gurion established the army for multiple purposes Defending the country was only one of them. A more important reason was to take Jews with diverse backgrounds from all over the world a create a vehicle to mold them into a unified people. More specifically a unified secular people "like other nations." For secular Jews that is the Zionist dream.

    Religious Jews have another name for it. We call it shmad- the attempt to uproot religious Judaism from the world. We know this well. The Greeks tried to do this, The Romans tried. The Church. This was part of the Czar's plan to handle the Jewish problem in Russia of the 1800's. Now the secular Israeli leaders are joining in. Their self professed tool is the army.

    How can there be "perfectly kosher army units" when the agenda of the army is to uproot Judaism? So the author is wrong again. "The purpose of keeping yeshiva students from enlisting," is not "to maintain Torah study" It's to keep our children Jewish. Nothing less.

    Recently, there was an incident in the army where as part of the "entertainment" they had women singing to the troops. A few members of the "perfectly kosher army units" tried not to attend since this is a violation of Torah law. They were ordered to go anyway. I suppose the commander felt that not having religious soldiers violate the Torah at an entertainment event endangered this country's national interests.

    So what exactly is the purpose of the army? To defend the country? We're going to have girls sing the enemy into submission?

    5. "The secular feel that we are an economic burden on their necks".

    Okay I'll admit it. I have taken money from Misrad Hadatot while learning in kollel. And on those months when the government paid we did live high off the secular society. Once a month my wife and I spent an afternoon celebrating our $150/month check at the supermarket buying food.

    The government funds other forms of higher education and no one complains that Art history students are parasites. Jews have always valued education. Even the weakest kollel students spend more time learning than the best PhD candidates. You care to dispute this? I've lived in both worlds. What's your background?

    The reason "a mere 38% of us take part in the labor force" is because of #4. The only way to stay out of the army is to stay in kollel full time, even for those who would prefer to work. That's their law not ours. Staying out of the army is not a matter of laziness. It's a matter of survival.

    6. see #4 and #5.

    7. "We chose not to educate our children to show gratitude to the soldiers who risked their lives and were killed or injured for our sake" nor do we "do not mention them in any way by any special day or prayer".

    So how accurate is this? First let's discuss what our secular brothers do. Twice a year a siren goes off and people stop what they are doing and for one minute they stand up out of respect. This is done on Yom Hazikaron for those who died in the Holocaust and for soldiers who died in battle.

    A few years ago I was in Netanya on the promenade overlooking the sea when the siren went off. And as predicted the people on the beach stopped fondling each other and the elderly woman on the bench near us put down her novel and every one stood up for one minute. When it was over they all went back to what they were doing.

    This is what the Haredi do.

    Every year we have a three week period of mourning beginning with a fast in which we don't eat or drink anything. We say additional prayers both in the morning and the afternoon. Then over the next three weeks we have increasing degrees of mourning in which we don't listen to music or celebrate, don't wear new clothing. Toward the end of this period we stop bathing, eating meat and drinking wine. We end the period of mourning in a fast in which we don't eat or drink anything for 25 hours, we don't wear leather shoes, we sit on the ground for all of the night and most of the day. Many people don't sleep in a bed. And we add lengthy prayers.

    We do this for the millions killed by the Babylonians, the millions killed by the Romans, the hundreds of thousands murdered in Christian Europe. We do this for those who died in the Holocaust and we include those soldiers who died defending our land.

    That's what we do to mourn all those who have suffered or were tortured and killed throughout our history.

    However, I think it's great that our secular brothers stop what they are doing and dedicate a minute of their lives a couple times a year to think of something other than themselves. It is definitely a step in the right direction.

  33. Anthony Kane says:

    8. "When extremist, delusional groups behave in ways that besmirch the name of God—e.g. the spitting in Beit Shemesh, dancing during the memorial siren, burning the national flag—our rabbis chose not to condemn them, clearly and consistently ( except for a few faint statements here and there). Why, then, are we explaining away the fact that the secular believe we all support those terrible acts?"

    And when secular Jews sick dogs on religious people in Petach Tikva, when the Jerusalem police tie up and beat religious prisoners, (yes, I have seen the wounds) and when Jewish grave yards are preserved everywhere in the world except in Israel and the non extremist secular leaders society don't protest and in many cases promote this behavior are we to believe that they support these acts?

    Our extremists are a lot less dangerous than yours. They sit in their our groups, complain a lot and don't act out much unless directly attacked. You elect your extremists government positions, put them in the Keneset, and make them judges in the courts.

    As for the spitting incident, this did not happen because a religious zealot walked into Talpiot to antagonize the secular Jews there. It happened because the secular Jews went into the religious neighborhood with the sole intent of antagonizing the religious Jews living there. No, we don't condone what they do, but they are harmless when left alone. I wish I could say as much for your extremists.

    9. "We've opted to allow our public officials and pundits to curse out all the secular all the time. Why, then, when the secular media treat us the same way, are we offended and cry out that they're persecuting us?"

    Not sure what this is about. Religious Jews don't curse. It is forbidden for us to do so.

    10. "The Haredi press will never offer any praise of or express support for secular Israelis who perform good deeds".

    This may be purely my opinion but I don't think the word "press" can take the adjective "haredi." It's like the "kosher shrimp" that they have in the US. If is is "shrimp" then in can't be kosher and if it is "kosher" it can't be shrimp.

    11. "We would not agree, under any condition, that secular Israelis turn up in our schools to teach our children heresy, and we would have kept them from putting up stands with books of heresy in our areas. Why, then, do we not understand when the secular do not agree that we seduce her children into denying their parents' heresy?"

    This is an easy one. Let's use a simple word substitution to illustrate the difference. Let's replace the word heresy with heroin and see how the sentence reads.

    "We would not agree, under any condition, that secular Israelis turn up in our schools to GIVE our children HEROIN, and we would have kept them from putting up stands DISTRIBUTING HEROIN in our areas. Why, then, do we not understand when the secular do not agree that we seduce her children into REJECTING their parents' HEROIN HABIT?"

    12. "We do not agree that secular people move into Haredi neighborhoods. So where do we get the arrogance and audacity to call anti-Semites those secular who don't agree that Haredim move near their homes, in secular neighborhoods?"

    Not sure what this means. Do you mean "near their homes" as in Bnei Brak is near Ramat Gan? Or do you mean on the same street?

    I can't think of any reason why someone Haredi would want to live in a secular neighborhood. Except maybe because the housing in Hareidi neighborhoods is so much more expensive and the government traditionally has limited most new Hareidi housing projects to over the green line areas or places that are not so secure. Kiryat Sefer was build as a buffer for Modi'in. Emmanuel and Betar are in not so nice neighborhoods.

    Keep in mind that Israel is about the size of New Jersey with the population less than New York City. There is plenty of room here for housing. Why then is it so hard to get affordable housing? I've heard that it could be because many Keneset.
    members own property property and if the open up housing to meet the needs of the population the value of their investments will go down. But I don't know this for sure because I don't read the newspapers (see #10).

    As for the author's butchering of the Rambam, keep in mind that in the Rambam's generation Torah scholars were able to support themselves and still maintain their scholarship. Although the Rambam himself did not do this until later in his life, after his brother died, this was the norm. Several generations, Rabeinu Yehuda, the son of the Rosh, began to take support from the community so he could maintain his level of scholarship. Since that time, the world communities have supported Torah scholarship.

    However, the Kesef Mishna has an entirely different understanding than the author has. He explains in what context the Rambam was writing and how what we do today is not only acceptable, but commendable even according to the Rambam. Of course, I wouldn't expect the author to have read the Kesef Mishna and figure out what any 15 year old can read. He was probably on some drill somewhere when the Yeshiva got to it.

    In case the author does want to see what the Kesef Mishna says, I'll give him a little hint to get him started. Open the Mishna Torah to the area you just quoted. The Kesef Mishna is the smaller print surrounding the Rambam's text.

  34. Dan Silagi says:

    Anthony Kane: You with the goyischer name who professes to be Haredi: You're a lying sack of haredi Scheisse. I won't call you on all your anti-secular BS, except this. The Egyptians, in 1973, never got anywhere near Tel Aviv, as you claim. They got to the Mitla Pass in the Sinai, and were driven back. The IDF crossed the Suez Canal, and had it not been for a ceasefire, Israeli soldiers would have occupied the Sphinx and King Tut's tomb. It wasn't "Hashem" who beat the Egyptians, it was better training and better (US-made, for the most part) equipment. You are a chillul hamshem, and a poster boy for anti-Semitism.

  35. Anthony Kane says:

    Seriously, Dan, you didn't like anything I wrote? Even the part about heroin? You didn't think that was brilliant?

    I appreciate your fact corrections, though your military analysis is a bit lacking. The information I wrote was what people who were here in 1973 told me happened. You never know who to believe.

    "I won't call you on all your anti-secular BS".

    On the contrary, please do. I want to hear how you respond. It is hard finding a secular zionist in Israel these days. Most of them are have moved to Los Angeles or are in nursing homes. It's good to learn that there are still people cheering how great Israel is and how great Zionism is from the comfort of their New Jersey homes.

    Besides, if you don't answer people will get the impression that you can't answer.

    Just try to cut back on the cliche insults:

    "anti-Semitism"- Look, we are all Jews here. Except for a lot of your spouses. But they aren't going to be reading this anyway.

    "chillul hamshem"- For many people this is the defining characteristic of their lifestyle. You don't intend to insult the very people you are trying to defend, do you?

    "Scheisse"- Try to keep it in English. We're not in the old country anymore. If you have trouble finding a word try using a thesaurus.

    Here's the general guideline:
    1-wit-good
    2-satire-good
    3-moronic insults-bad

  36. Dan Silagi says:

    I know guppies who are more brilliant than you, Tiny Tony. And yeah, my wife isn't Jewish, and I am. Got a problem with that, asshat? And ifyou want to insult secular Jews, you can do so to my face, putz.

  37. Dan Silagi says:

    Let me add a thirteenth reason why secular Jews (and just about anyone else with more brains than a salamander) should be repulsed by and reject ultra-orthodox "Judaism:" Anthony Kane.

  38. Anthony Kane says:

    That's it? You mean that's the best you can do? You don't have any intelligent reply?

  39. Anthony Kane says:

    That's it? You mean that's the best you can do? You don't have any intelligent reply?

  40. Dan Silagi says:

    You post a long-winded response to each of the 12 points Rabbi Bloch mentioned as to why secular Jews dislike Haredim, pleading "guilty" to each of them, then saying, "Secular Jews are evil, heretic," then comparing them to dope pushers. This isn't likely to endear you to either Haredim, who'd regard you as an extremist, or to seculars, who despise the ultra-orthodox to begin with. In other words, you're simply stirring the pot.

    Personally, I doubt very much if you're Haredi, or even Jewish. One thing for sure: You're a troll.

  41. Anthony Kane says:

    "pleading "guilty" to each of them" – so you'll never qualify for jury duty, but that's okay.

    "Secular Jews are evil"- this is by definition. Good and evil is defined by the Torah. Secular Jews can be nice, kind, helpful, and considerate, etc. They just can't be 'good'.

    "heretic" not my words, but I do give you that much credit. A heretic is "A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church."

    "Personally, I doubt very much if you're Haredi, or even Jewish" -so that means you are withdrawing your 13th reason.

    Okay, that's a little better, but still no substance. I would have expected more from someone who holds the coveted title of One star Top Commenter.

    You don't have to bother answering again. We've already established that you have nothing to add.

    One more thing. That name Silagi. Are you Italian?

  42. Dan Silagi says:

    It's none of your mother****ing business what my ethnicity is, Eliyahu, or whatever the **** your name really is. Capice?

    For someone who claims to be an Amherst grad, you're as stupid as you're arrogant.

  43. Dan Silagi says:

    If you have to ask whether or not I'm Italian, that proves you're not Haredi. Just about every Haredi knows "Silagi" is an anglicized version of "Szilagyi" which is a Transylvanian name. Other little giveaways: You spelled "Knesset" incorrectly. Once is understandable — it's a typo, but you misspelled it several times.

    But the main point is that if you are indeed ultra-Orthodox, you wouldn't be justifying every negative Haredi stereotype, specifically, that secular Jews are "evil," and that the only purpose of secular Israelis is to die in combat for Haredim. By doing so, you've made yourself a Haredi caricature — with one big exception, your appearance. Where's your kippe? Where are your pais and your tzitszis? And your misstatements about the Yom Kippur War are beyond laughable, especially coming from someone who claims to have lived, or who currently lives, in Israel.

    You're as Haredi as a pork chop.

  44. Dvorah Kane says:

    Dan, my condolences for your loss in '73, but have you ever considered that ONLY 2 of your relatives were killed because the haredim were studying Torah.?

    If haredim were in the Army fighting as well (instead of in the kollels, yeshivas and heders learning Torah – which is what we believe protects Israel)… all of our army may well have been slaughtered, not just a few.

    Again, I am sorry for your loss. All Jewish souls have their job to do – secular, haredi and everyone inbetween… it's all in G-d's plan.

  45. Dan, I just want to say that you rock.

  46. Orah Peer says:

    Love the article! this quote is amazing.

    In my view, this is the strongest and most introspective comment on Haredi interaction with the state I’ve read. The pundit Menachem Rahat, who mentioned Rabbi Bloch’s writing in this Shabbat’s Matzav Haruach magazine, also cites a rarely discussed ruling of Maimonides, Hayad Hachazakah, Hilchot Talomud Tora, 3:10:

    Anyone who decides to be engaged in Torah study and not work, and instead to be supported by charity – this person desecrates God’s name (Chillel et Hashem), degrades the Torah, extinguishes the light of our faith, brings evil upon himself and forfeits life in the world to come; since it is forbidden to derive benefit from the words of Torah in this world. The Rabbis said (Avot 4:5): Anyone who derives benefit from the words of Torah in this world, forfeits his life in the world to come. They further commanded and said: (Avot 4:5) Do not make the words of Torah a crown to increase your own importance, or an axe with which to chop. They further commanded, saying: (Avot 1:10) Love work and despise positions of power (Rabbanut). And: (Avot 2:2) Any Torah which is not accompanied by work will eventually be nullified and will lead to sin. Ultimately, such a person will end up stealing from others.

  47. Orah Peer says:

    In my view, this is the strongest and most introspective comment on Haredi interaction with the state I’ve read. The pundit Menachem Rahat, who mentioned Rabbi Bloch’s writing in this Shabbat’s Matzav Haruach magazine, also cites a rarely discussed ruling of Maimonides, Hayad Hachazakah, Hilchot Talomud Tora, 3:10:

    Anyone who decides to be engaged in Torah study and not work, and instead to be supported by charity – this person desecrates God’s name (Chillel et Hashem), degrades the Torah, extinguishes the light of our faith, brings evil upon himself and forfeits life in the world to come; since it is forbidden to derive benefit from the words of Torah in this world. The Rabbis said (Avot 4:5): Anyone who derives benefit from the words of Torah in this world, forfeits his life in the world to come. They further commanded and said: (Avot 4:5) Do not make the words of Torah a crown to increase your own importance, or an axe with which to chop. They further commanded, saying: (Avot 1:10) Love work and despise positions of power (Rabbanut). And: (Avot 2:2) Any Torah which is not accompanied by work will eventually be nullified and will lead to sin. Ultimately, such a person will end up stealing from others.

  48. Orah Peer says:

    tomado de este link

  49. Mina Celnik says:

    Except the people who need to read this will find a reason that it's not true…..

  50. Orah Peer says:

    many charedim starting to work now in Israel ,there is an ORG.that takes care of training,scholarships etc..they are doing it now begadol bH

  51. quiza por la tradicion de los rabinos del siglo I, los mantenia la comunidad con los diezmos …que eran los sabios del pueblo judio y el pueblo debia mantenerlos….no se..

  52. Dan Silagi says:

    Where are those rabbis of yore when we really need 'em?

  53. Orah Peer says:

    no perluchi ,los diezmos iban p/los Cohanim y los leviim…pero =desde todos los tiempos hombres trabajaban,no era la mujer la q' los mantenia….el mundo no puede subsistir si no hay gente q' estudie Torah.eso s muy claro,y asi lo dijo Rabbi bejaye.ahora no todos PUEDEN estudiar to el dia,hay gente q' simplem. esta estudiando porq' no le queda otra y por el q' diran…los valores estan tan dados vuelta q' gente q' trabaja o va al ejercito(relig.)s mal vista y son considerados como segunda clase….mientras los q' no hacen na to el dia tienen el respeto de los relig….por eso me gusto mucho ese articulo q' pone las cosas donde van.

  54. Orah Peer says:

    la mujer puede ayudar como no!pero ella NO tiene q' ser la responsable de traer pan a casa!easy as that.

  55. Orah Peer says:

    cuando te casas est a la ktuva donde el hombre se compromete a mantener a su mujer no al revez!

  56. Orah Peer says:

    esas mujeres estan tan brain washed q' se creen q' hacen una mitzva increible etc…..well depende.hay casos donde el hombre no puede vivir sin Torah y sin estudiarla to el dia ,great!p/alguien asi conseguir una mujer q' lo mantenga OK(sobre to si el podria trabajar dentro de su rango como sea Mashguiaj kashrut,Sofer,etc…).pero todos los demas q' cabalgan n esto y pierden su tiempo tomando cafe y charlando n yeshiva etc..mientras su mujer,pregnant or whatever estado lo mantiene me parece horrendo.

  57. Orah Peer says:

    por eso dije q' las cosas bH ESTAN CAMBIANDO.hay ORG. q' empiezan a entrenar a jaredim hacia el trabajo,ya hay miles trabajando y happy!!!

  58. Orah Peer says:

    eso n Israel aqui muchisimo relig. trabajan.

  59. Orah Peer says:

    Dan i didn't get ur question…

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