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November 27, 2014 / 5 Kislev, 5775
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Human Rights Lawyer Challenging AAP Pro-Circumcision Stance

"The AAP’s circumcision recommendations contradict its own bioethics policy statement, which requires pediatric care to be based only on the needs of the patient."

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Photo Credit: Serge Attal/FLASH90

Religious Jews don’t circumcise their male children because of the alleged medical benefits of this Biblical rite, but because it is a Biblical rite. Over the generations, popular and medical views on circumcision have shifted from hearty endorsements to strong rejections and all the positions in between, and Jews just continued to circumcise their sons.

Still, it is fascinating to see how this area of human behavior is evolving in keeping with the shifting social mores. Today, in the midst of all out political attacks on circumcision in Europe and the U.S., yet another assault on Brit Milah is making headlines.

“Attorneys for the Rights of the Child” J. Steven Svoboda and pediatrician Robert S. Van Howe, M.D. have published a new article in the Journal of Medical Ethics (JME), arguing that the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) position regarding male circumcision lacks credible support.

The article, “Out of step: fatal flaws in the latest AAP policy report on neonatal circumcision,” is being published online today (subscription required).

Svoboda and Van Howe criticize the AAP’s apparent cultural bias in favor of circumcision, which they note puts the AAP firmly out of step with world medical opinion on this issue. They argue that the AAP documents suffer from troubling deficiencies, ultimately undermining their credibility. According to the authors, these deficiencies include the omission of critical issues, biased use of the medical literature, and conclusions that are not supported by the evidence given.

Svoboda commented, “The AAP ignores so many important topics that it is hard to know where to begin. For example, the anatomy and function of the foreskin are not mentioned in their documents, even though they propose to cut it off without first considering the harm and pain that result from its removal. The AAP’s circumcision recommendations contradict its own bioethics policy statement, which requires pediatric care to be based only on the needs of the patient. Non-therapeutic circumcision is incompatible with widely accepted ground rules for surgical intervention in minors.”

Dr. Van Howe, a Clinical Professor at Michigan State University College of Human Medicine, said, “When physicians decide whether to do a procedure, they must, and normally do, exclude from their medical decisions non-medical factors regarding the parents’ culture. Contrary to what the AAP suggests, doctors are not cultural brokers. Their duty is promoting and protecting the health of their patients, not following practices lacking a solid ethical and medical foundation.”

Svoboda asks, “Why is the AAP promoting public funding for an unnecessary and harmful surgery when we find ourselves struggling even to provide basic care for all our children? In these days of rising medical costs and scarce resources, we simply cannot afford to continue to carry out such a harmful and outmoded practice.”

The AAP‘s official position on this matter states:

The American Academy of Pediatrics finds that circumcision has potential medical benefits and advantages, as well as risks. A recent analysis by the AAP concluded that the medical benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks. We recommend that the decision to circumcise is one best made by parents in consultation with their pediatrician, taking into account what is in the best interests of the child, including medical, religious, cultural, and ethnic traditions and personal beliefs.

Your pediatrician (or your obstetrician if he or she would be performing the circumcision) should discuss the benefits and risks of circumcision with you and the forms of analgesia that are available.

A few months ago, the Royal Dutch Medical Association favorably cited an earlier version of Svoboda’s and Van Howe’s article, noting that even if benefits do exist the procedure can safely be delayed until the boy himself can make the decision.

Svoboda and Van Howe’s article appears at a similar publication date with a commentary to appear in the AAP’s own Pediatrics by thirty-eight leading European medical authorities, who have independently reached a conclusion consistent with Svoboda and Van Howe’s in criticizing the “cultural bias” in the AAP’s policy.

Much of what the two authors are arguing makes perfect sense, although the notion of delaying the decision of circumcision until the child grows up is disturbing, because the amount of pain endured by a grownup far exceeds the suffering of an 8-day old infant. But their argument regarding the inherent conflict in a doctor’s recommendation of a procedure that doesn’t have scientifically proven benefits appears cogent.

And as in so many other divine commandments Jews are embracing, our position is that we’re not doing it because of the benefits—should they exist—but to fulfill a commandment. As in “I would have loved to eat pork, there’s nothing wrong with it, but God has commanded me not to.”

Works for me.

About the Author: Yori Yanover has been a working journalist since age 17, before he enlisted and worked for Ba'Machane Nachal. Since then he has worked for Israel Shelanu, the US supplement of Yedioth, JCN18.com, USAJewish.com, Lubavitch News Service, Arutz 7 (as DJ on the high seas), and the Grand Street News. He has published Dancing and Crying, a colorful and intimate portrait of the last two years in the life of the late Lubavitch Rebbe, (in Hebrew), and two fun books in English: The Cabalist's Daughter: A Novel of Practical Messianic Redemption, and How Would God REALLY Vote.


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106 Responses to “Human Rights Lawyer Challenging AAP Pro-Circumcision Stance”

  1. What happened to the good old days when Jews believed in God?

  2. Dan Silagi says:

    God didn't command you not to eat pork. A bunch of rabbinical priests did. God has better things to do than worry about what you eat, Yori.

    As for circumcision, there are medical benefits to the procedure and that's why I'm in favor of it. If the only justification for it is tradition, or because the Bible tells you to do it, I'd tell the mohel to get lost, not terribly politely.

    On the other hand, if Mr.Svoboda and his ilk tried to keep me from having my son circumcised, I'd tell them where to go, even less politely.

  3. Ethan Perks says:

    Dan; Following the Commandments is why there are still Jews in the world after 3,000 years despite all of the despots who sought to destroy us. Without Jewish Law we would be like anybody else.

  4. Hey religious fanatics—mutilating, blood rituals aren't for children! Shame on those who seek to perpetuate this physical and sexual child abuse.

  5. Dan Silagi says:

    Got news for you, Ethan. We ARE just like anybody else; we're all God's creatures. And the 3,000 years of despots arguments doesn't wash anymore; at least as far as Americans (and virtually all western Jews) are concerned. The days of circling the wagons, of seeing anti-Semites under the bed, and behind the bushes, are over.

    But at least you concede that the 619 laws of halaicha are meant to render Jews apart from others. Back in Poland, 1910, this might have made sense; the Poles WERE out to get us, as were the Russians, the Ukranians, etc. But we're in a new era, a new age, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm first and foremost an American, of Jewish descent on both sides. The United States is my homeland; America is my nation.

  6. Dan Silagi says:

    I don't miss my foreskin, and neither does my wife. To me, most of this stuff is pure unadulterated BS.

  7. How can you miss what you never had – ask intact men and they wouldn't give up this highly innervated skin and neither would their partners. Who doesn't want more penis instead of less?

  8. I wonder if there is a way to welcome baby boys and baby girls into the covenant equally.

    When I reflect on halacha, I have faith that the intention is more important than the rule. I sense the intention of circumcision is to devote ourselves and our families to God. I am hopeful that we can fulfill this intention by doing as Moses instructed by circumcising the foreskins of our hearts. It seems possible to me that Moses had whole sexual anatomy and never made the choice to have part of it cut off, and yet he chose to circumcise his heart and open it fully to God. I am inspired that the instructions given by Moses can be followed in choice by both men and women equally.

    I want to be very clear that I am not against the mitzvot of circumcision. We can מוּל by cutting the foreskins of our hearts in spirit, so I wonder if we can מוּל by cutting the foreskin of a penis in spirit as well. The covenant does not specify how to circumcise.

    I would like the circumcision of children to be performed in a way that keeps their sexual anatomy whole. I wonder if the covenant could be fulfilled by sliding a metal ring onto a child's penis to imprint a mark in the flesh of the foreskin for the ceremony. I also wonder if the covenant could be fulfilled by the mother touching blood to the child's genitals as Zipporah did to Moses's genitals on the way to Egypt. After that, the Lord let him alone. This circumcision would celebrate a mother's role as protector.

    If an adult wants to have his or her own foreskin cut off, I support that freedom of choice. I ask that we please protect the freedom of children to make their own choice about their sexual anatomy when they are old enough to make such a complicated and personal decision.

    Shalom.

  9. I know many men who are heartbroken that they are circumcised and that they didn't have a choice. Quite a few of these men are Jewish. I am hopeful there is a way to fufill the religious imperative and protect genital autonomy at the same time.

  10. Dan there are 613 mitzvot and if you believe in Judaism's you would know that what you are referring to is the oral law. You also obviously do not follow history or the news too much or you would know that in the '30s Jews in Germany felt as you do, wouldn't even refer to themselves as Jews but "Germans of Mosaic persuasion " (what do you think happened to them although quite a few of them voted for hitler) and now under the guise of "free speech" some of the most vile anti semitism is being spread on many (if not most) collage campuses. Some pretend its "anti Zionism" but all you have to do is read that garbage to know the truth.

  11. Jew Haters in the without the Nazi face.

  12. The headline today "Indonesian Muslims Reject Ban on Female Cirumcision".
    The anti semitic pediatriacians are silent.. Why only Jews?

  13. Dan Silagi says:

    Let's start with your premises: First, I follow the news plenty, probably a lot closer than you. Second, I've never heard the term "Germans of Mosaic Persuasion" before, and I'm quite familiar with the history of German Jewry and the history of the Third Reich. Third, I don't believe "quite a few of these Germans of Mosiac Persuasion" voted for Hitler. Maybe future Field Marshall Erhard Milch, a Nazi war criminal who was also a full-blooded Jew did (he received his Deutschesbluteserklarung from the Fuhrer himself).

    Yes, there is a lot of anti-Israel sentiment at some universities, and most of the most vile are Jewish lefties. But that hardly means that if I eat a cheeseburger or a pork chop, the Fourth Reich will kill all the remaining Jews, which some knuckleheaded hasids and haredim would tell us.

    Finally, it's "college" not "collage." One doesn't get an education at a kaleidoscope.

  14. Gil Gilman says:

    Wow! So much negativity and angst written here. People are jumping up and down and waving their arms like the flames of hell are searing through their shoe leather. Speaking of shoe leather, why don't you go out and feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and house the homeless, because circumcision must have caused that also. What Ithink is that you are a bunch of kooks who don't mind slicing and dicing a fetus, but are in horror of a little snip of the foreskin on a living baby. Funny, I don't remember all that trauma and separation you talk about, have no psychological problems, have a high IQ, a good sense of humor…somehow I survived it. Oh. I get it, that little tantrum, that cause is what you live for, it replaces Hashem in you lives. That little foreskin is your life! Okay, just don't bring it into my bed ;-)

  15. Dan Silagi says:

    Where's Foreskinman when we really need him?

  16. Dan the misspelling is due my iPhone's spellcheck and if you don't see the rise in anti semitism in the US particularly in the Democratic Party you're blind and deaf.

  17. Ron Low says:

    Adult self-elected genital surgery is not the trauma the author suggests. Adults can tolerate much higher dosage for pain management. Plus, they have the satisfaction of knowing they chose it, they could wiegh in in the style or degree of cutting, and if they don't like the outcome, there is someone NOT long dead to be sued.

  18. Elwyn Moir says:

    How about the fact that if an adult man asks for it his doctor WILL give him as much endone as he likes for the recovery period, no questions asked.

  19. Dan Silagi says:

    You obviously didn't get a very good education at Mercy College. And yes, I'm a Democrat. Got a problem with that, schmuck?

  20. Rebecca Fine says:

    When it comes to the medical policy on circumcision for boys, it has recently been reported that the Canadian Pediatric Society is dropping its previous opposition to male circumcision. The new Canadian policy will recommend that parents be informed of both the benefits and risks of circumcision for boys and leave the decision up to the parents.

  21. Mark Lyndon says:

    All western medical organizations already have policies condemning female circumcision, and it's illegal in most of them.

  22. Dan, Considering what almost happened at the last national Democratic Party conference last summer I understand your hostility because after all they could only change the party platform back by ignoring the vote. Obama's associations would (if they were as anti black as they are anti Semitic and anti white) have precluded him from even being a serious candidate the first time. If it were not for both the collusion of the "main stream" media and voter fraud he would not have won the second. His fanatically anti Semitic anti white anti capitalism associates are numerous enough that I only list a few here (some you may have heard of others not) of course J Wright (who he refers to in his book as his "mentor and spiritual father", W Ayres (in whose living room he announced his candidacy), Derrick Bell (father of that racist "critical race theory")(he was so highly regarded by Bell's followers he delivered the eulogy) the list can go on but here are a few very influential bigots in Obama's past

  23. Dan Silagi says:

    Obama is truly a great socialist. Just ask equity traders, who'll tell you that the stock market has more than doubled in the 4+ years since he has taken office. Manufacturing jobs have been steadily increasing, for the first time in at least 12 years. By 2020, the US will almost certainly no longer need to import oil from any country other than Canada, and by 2030, will be completely energy-independent. By contrast, in 2006, the US imported 2/3 of its oil. Now that's down to just over 1/3, and is dropping fast. We no longer have to kiss Saudi ass, and were able to impose an embargo on Iranian exports without even a blip in crude oil prices.

    The US auto industry, which was moribund in 2008, is now vibrant. American cars are as good or better than anyone's, including Germany's. And we have two Beemers, which are both great automobiles.

    Obama has done something no other president in the past 100 years has been able to do. He averted a second Great Depression, despite Republicans dogging him every step of the way. It took FDR nine years to get us out of the first (and only) Great Depression, and FDR needed lots of help from Adolf and Tojo to do it.

    I drank the same Kool-Aid you're now drinking back in 2008. I believe the Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayres BS, and voted for McCain, whom I highly respect. I thought Obama was the Second Coming of Karl Marx.

    I am happy to admit I was dead wrong.

  24. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    No one is telling you you are FORCED to have a circumcision. You call the Mohel, he does not arrive automatically. Get over yourself Dan. Just as much as the supposed "human rights" activists (and I would dare say Antisemitic) are demanding it be stopped your comments are no better

  25. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    San Francisco, where your ilk attempted to become the first city in the US to make Judaism illegal by banning both circumcisions and Kosher food. While you Jew haters demand Constitutional freedoms so long as they allow you to spew your hate, you demand it be shredded when someone dares disagree with you. You may want to re-read, or have someone read for you, the First Amendment.

  26. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    "some circumcised men." Meaning very few!! Sexual anxieties, low self-esteem? Sounds like any man – circumcised or not – that has personal issues. And your presumption that ONLY the reports from doctors YOU support are supposedly "authoritative" is disingenuous at best and propaganda on its face. Bottom Line: You have an agenda. And demonizing those that disagree with you, like the doctors of the AAP that don't agree, is your only method of attack since you have no objective evidence.

    So let's complete your stats and conduct a REAL evaluation: How about we do a study how many serial killers are circumcised so we can establish a correlation! How many arsonists are circumcised so we can establish a correlation! How many politicians are circumcised so we can establish a correlation! How many pedophiles and rapists are circumcised so we can establish a correlation!

    And by the way, I checked your blog (and a blog is what it is). A large number of the articles you have posted are bogus or been overturned – the Germany ban for example. Obfuscation, Lies and Propaganda appears to be all you have.

  27. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    And I know a significant number of men, and their wives, that are very happy/. You mind your religion and we will mind ours. And yes, we are grateful for the First Amendment that makes sure we are left alone.

  28. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Mark Lyndon And yet, the attention of the liberals is to ban Judaism. San Francisco's attempt ban is the perfect example. When SF pushed to ban circumcision, it was directed against ONLY males, (JEWS!!) no mention of women. I wonder why that si

  29. If by making Judaism illegal you mean protecting the human rights of all children including Jewish boys from sadistic, abusive, sexually repressive adults then yes, it's about damn time! One's freedom of religion ends where someone else's body begins. No child should be forced to participate in some superstitious, disfiguring, dick-carving ceremony. Children aren't property no matter how much some parents would like to believe that to be the case. After all, slavery was abolished in the United States.

  30. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    SF tried to ban kosher slaughter and tried to ban circumcisions. See the pattern? The rest of us do! And the FACT that your ilk always attacks Jews but never when its under banner of islam further illustrates the point. And "superstition?" So what you are saying is that YOU know what is right and everyone that disagrees with you is "superstitious." TYPICAL "LIBERAL" (or quite simply at your core a Jew hater!) Notice how the bigots always migrate to Jewish web sites to spew forth? I guess they know tat unlike Muslims, Jews won't blow them up

  31. I've got no idea where you got your figures from. Since Obama took office unemployment has more than doubled and as far as "fuel independence" he has consistently torpedoed any drilling and most exploration so I don't know where you think that's coming from. I notice you didn't address his close personal relationship with Derrick Bell without question the most dangerous insidious one. It's bad enough his friends in the media wouldn't even mention it. Look him up and see what I mean.

  32. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Dan Silagi Stocks have gone up because the Fed is printing money to oblivion – great for the market, and that companies are sitting on hoards of cash, hoping they can force distribution. Manufacturing jobs are up now because they collapsed between 2009 and 2012. When you hit rock bottom, it can only go up. More manufacturing jobs are being created in CHina and Scandinavia thanks to obama's green energy loans and his buddies like his jobs czar from GE sending over 100,000 GE jobs abroad. The US has more oil, yet your beloved lord and savior is refusing to allow development for fear of giving his paymaster soros competition. Our energy balance is due not to any greater US development but due to reduced need due to a slow economy. The US auto industry is collapsing again, with GM approaching bankruptcy yet again. The US taxpayers will still lose tens of billions of dollars as obama's payback to the union votes he bought. Even his 'cash for clunkers' failed, with 80% of OUR TAXPAYER dollars going to Japan and Korea. He did not avert a second depression. When over half the population is dependent on public handouts to survive, it is a depression. Just because obama's socialist economists refuse to use the word does not change the facts on the ground. And if the GOP refusing to allow more tax increases to support the welfare addicts, then let us hope they succeed. Unemployment in the US continues to hover at 16%! THAT'S FACT – just go to the BLS site and dig thru the stats. UNDEREMPLOYMENT is at 22%!Unemployment for Blacks is at 14%. And under obama, pay equality for women continues to plummet, including his own WH staff where women are paid 18% less for the same jobs. And let's not forget the other pesky issues such as his willingness to assassinate US citizens IN the US and imprison without trial. And of course the massacre he created in Benghazi.

    Obama is naught more then a carpetbagging opportunistic profiteer and will do anything and allow murdered anyone to further his personal goals. ie: Benghazi!!

    Keep slurping the hallal kool aid.If obama has his way, you will pray not to be DEAD wrong. He is the main reason I will keep my gun handy

  33. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    You can believe any way you wish. We will follow our beliefs the way we wish.

    The benefits of the First Amendment

  34. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    The SF "Human Rights Activists" will do all they can to make Judaism illegal, yet have no issue promoting a country that hangs Gays as long as they too hate Jews and want Jews eliminated.

    http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/head-of-san-francisco-human-rights-commission-claims-iran-is-more-lgbt-friendly/

  35. No Arie, more and more are speaking out as they educate themselves, rather than react in ignorance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAGNnqyNidY The foreskin is an erotogenic organ that protects the glans, acts as a natural lubricant, and is rich with specialized mucosa and over 20,000 high-sensory nerve endings. http://www.livescience.com/health/070615_penis_sensitivity.html.

  36. Lots of women in some cultures are happy they were circumcised as babies. That doesn't make it ok to do to other babies. Male circumcision is equivalent to the removal of the clitoral foreskin which is one of several forms of female circumcision, all of which are illegal. Like it or not, the world is learning, and will continue to learn. Circumcision rates are dropping even in Israel.

  37. Ron Low says:

    ^^ See the pattern? The rest of us do! ^^

    Yeah, you're part of an ancient superstitious blood cult. Modern society is rejecting its barbarism.

  38. Thank you for respecting my beliefs. I respect yours. That's why I'd like you to have the freedom to make up your own mind about their own anatomy. I would have made a different choice for myself than was made for me.

  39. Catherine Schau says:

    Arie's Pragmatic Politics Muslims also circumcise and would also be affected by the ban. Additonally the vast majority of circumcisions in the US are not religious at all but for stupid reasons like "he should look like his father" or "it's cleaner".

  40. Catherine Schau says:

    Arie's Pragmatic Politics That's because female genital mutilation is already illegal at the federal level so there is no need to ban it at the state level. Also the "ban" was actually an age restriction-any male 18 or older could have himself circumcised if he wanted to do so. You are missing the point completely. Infant and child circumcision for any reason except clear and immediate medical necessity is a human rights violation. Person A's religious rights end where Person B begins, even if Person A is the parent and Person B is the child.

  41. It is no biblical rite, it is a biblical WRONG!

  42. Arie's Pragmatic Politics, right, like they are going to talk to YOU about their most intimate details or problems. A lot of married couples don't even talk to each other about it!

  43. Roger DesMoulins says:

    In the USA, the circumcision of women is a felony under Federal law. Hence no need agitate against it.
    The SF referendum (which I did not support) did NOT propose to ban brit milah, only to delay it until after the 18th birthday.
    There is no desire to "ban" Judaism, only a desire to see it evolve.
    The main objective of the North American anticircumcision movement is the maniacal circumcisions performed by gentile doctors on gentile babies. This has no valid medical or public health justification, and can damage adult sexual pleasure and functionality.

  44. Roger DesMoulins says:

    There are also penises that very much desire to be left alone. And there are American women who have slept with both kinds of men and say out loud that they prefer the penis that God designed.

  45. Roger DesMoulins says:

    American hospitals used to ridicule mothers who did not want their sons circumcised. USA gentile popular culture for the past 70 odd years has assumed that the foreskin is a mark of socioeconomic deprivation. Of a deficiency in sexual sophistication. Intact men became a despised sexual minority. This was not right, and led millions of USA parents to accept the circumcisions of their sons. This whole situation reeks of bigotry. No human should ever feel ashamed for being what God intended him to be.

  46. Roger DesMoulins says:

    There are intactivists who are pro-life. Me for instance.
    To circumcise a gentile baby, without a compelling medical reason and without any understanding of the possible adverse sexual consequences, does indeed raise nontrivial human rights issues.

  47. Roger DesMoulins says:

    Dan Silagi : I broadly agree with you. I do believe that ObamaCare will not work, however. And the generosity of Social Security and Medicare will have to be trimmed. Most of all, it is high time that well off Americans and corporations pay at least $350B of additional income tax.

  48. Roger DesMoulins says:

    We deplore Islamic circumcision.

  49. Roger DesMoulins says:

    Arie's Pragmatic Politics : THe Schofield initiative, which I did not support, did not seek to ban brit milah, but only to require that it be done after the 18th birthday.

  50. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Rob RasCh Then don't circumcise your kids.There are more arguments justifying circumcision then against it. The State is empowered to protect my religious and parental freedoms. It's called the Constitution.

  51. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Dan Silagi Your angst appears posed against Jews and Judaism in general, not circumcision. If you hate being a Jew so much, you can either convert or declare you are not Jewish. Very simple. Amazing how Jew haters and self-hating Jews migrate to Jewish sites to spew their own hatreds cloaking their comments. "Under the bed, in the closet?" I bet you support jesse "hymie" jackson, al "massacre at freddy's" sharpton, and george "working with the nazis was the happiest time of my life" soros

  52. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Rob RasCh Typical of people like Rob declaring the COnstitutional Rights are only applicable if you agree with him, his fellow libs, and Jew haters. If you do not like Judaism robbie, convert or declare yourself a non-Jew. Simple as that. Although we all know you believe I should be denied MY freedoms to conform to yours.

  53. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Rob RasCh You should assert your beliefs and take it to Court. Admit it robbie…your attacks are not against male circumcision, it's against Jews. It's what you are

  54. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Dan Silagi dannie boy is out of the closet being the demoputz he is. He got caught in his own BS and can't respond intelligently (typical of his ilk) so he curses and attacks. Fact is Antisemitism is on the rise. But then, danny boy went to UC, home the disbarred obamas and cop-killer ayres so his policy and thoughts are not surprising. How about you go sit in the corner danny – adults speaking here and you have no intelligence to provide useful info

  55. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Dan Silagi It's good that the Jew hating danny boy is out of the closet. Caught in his won BS and like the good demoputz he is comes out with curses and personal attacks. It's all you have. They believe the Constitution refers ONLY to them.

    Yes Michael, Antisemitism is UP in the US. FBI stats prove it! And if you look at obama's inner-circle, we see a plethora of Jew haters! jesse "hymie" jackson, al "massacre at freddy's" sharpton, and george "working with the nazis was the happiest time of my life" soros; the rev wright and his 20 yrs long attack on Jews from his pulpit with obama in the front row.

    But then danny went to UC, home of the disbarred obamas, and cop killer ayres. He learned well at the feet of his masters

  56. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Mark Daniel McQuillen As I said Mark, you have your choice and if you have sons, carry them out. I had sons and carried out my faith my way. Again, the benefits of the Constitution – although danny boy continues to demand the COnstitution only apply to those that agree with him and his ilk

  57. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Rob RasCh Then take your parents to Court and charge them. Put the proverbial money where your mouth is. And I presume your angst with the Jewish Community includes your no longer identifying yourself as a Jew. We would hope so given how much you hate Jews

  58. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    The liberals don't like to drill thru the REAL stats of unemployment. To the obamatons the truth is a four-letter word. If one goes to the BLS web site, get away from the home page and drill down thru the stats, the TRUTH shows up: REAL unemployment is close to 16% (including those that have given up and no longer receive unemployment insurance benefits); unemployment amongst Blacks is approx. 20%; underemployment is at 22%! Disability claims have skyrocketed, mainly by those who have lost their unemployment benefits and going to disability to collect.

    "Fuel independence?" Manufacturing in the US is down – less fuel consumed! The foreign cars being bought consume LESS gas, hence less used! The "moribund" car industry he referred to? GM is once again sliding to bankruptcy AFTER the TAXPAYERS paid over $1MILLION per UNION job to keep them afloat. The TAXPAYERS will still lose approx. $30BILLION as we expect GM to come and demand a double dip into our treasury.

    And of course, the recent Democratic Party tax hike on 77% of the US workers, with the working poor affected most (according to the CBO) with the same Democrats now demanding even more. Bottom Line: The economy is collapsing, and as it does the same old "let's blame the Rothschild Jew bank" attitudes surface. Rob and danny are pulling a pre-emptive shield to allege they "are not one of us" so they can be accepted by the Jew haters – much like the Jews of Berlin tried in 1939, just before they were herded to the ovens.

  59. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    "The Jewish Community" but not the "Muslim COmmunity." Interesting how you differentiate. You remind me of the Jews of Berlin 1939, looking to blend to make sure everyone knows you are "not one of us but one of them." Put your money where your moth is rob: sue your parents and "the Jewish Community" for the "grievous harm." And make sure that no one would ever confuse you with a Jew. That is your intent isn't it?

  60. Hugh Intactive says:

    Arie's Pragmatic Politics The state is empowered to protect everybody's freedoms, not just yours, and that includes children, including yours. It already protects them from parents in many cases.

  61. Jeff Cowsert says:

    The original Jewish Genital Mutil – I mean Circumcision was a small ritual nick of the foreskin – not a complete amputation of an organ from the reproductive system as is performed today. This is due to 1,000 year old Jewish opinion regarding sexual pleasure. See for yourself in The Guide for the Perplexed by Maimonides, the great Jewish philosopher:

    “As regards circumcision, I think that one of its objects is to limit sexual intercourse, and to weaken the organ of generation as far as possible, and thus cause man to be moderate. Some people believe that circumcision is to remove a defect in man's formation; but every one can easily reply: How can products of nature be deficient so as to require external completion, especially as the use of the foreskin to that organ is evident. The bodily injury caused to that organ is exactly that which is desired; This is, as I believe, the best reason for the commandment concerning circumcision.”.

    This is a Jewish woman’s research into Jewish infant circumcision and her opinion of what is truly going on with regard to religious control:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miriam-pollack/circumcision-identity-gen_b_1132896.html – It practically tells us that Jews have and do circumcise to break the bond of security and trust between mother and son. And later weaken the bond between husband and wife by making sex less pleasurable.

    "Circumcision subverts the community's relationship to the life-giving principle of the feminine, not only by obliterating the woman's rightful identity in structuring the historical social network of her tribe, but also by trivializing and implicitly forbidding her to acknowledge, much less act upon, her deepest mammalian instincts to protect her newly birthed child".

    "Typically, a mother's feelings are dismissed or ridiculed. Her voice is silenced, even to herself".

    "The wounding of circumcision irreversibly alters both mother and child: the mother is fractured at the base of her deepest womb-wisdom, which knows that she must protect her child no matter what; and the baby, shocked and traumatized, is fractured in his ability to absolutely trust the protective arms of the mother he has biologically and innately turned to as his primordial source of safety".

    “Additionally, the removal of the foreskin creates a secondary loss of sensitivity: not only has the most erogenous tissue of the male sexual organ been removed, but, as the man ages, the glans loses its mucosal covering, becomes dried out, and keratinizes over time. Typically by middle age the glans of the circumcised penis has lost much of its receptive potential and the man requires more abrasive stimulation to achieve orgasm.”.

    “In subtle but profound ways, circumcision functions to diminish a man's pleasure potential, allowing his bond to his partner to be subordinated to his bond to his tribal male peers.”.

  62. Jamie Smith says:

    Dan the medical benefits you speak of are much like the medical benefits the drs here tout as medical benefits to female circumcision.

    If you told me of the medical benefits as a intact female, I would tell you, very impolitely where to go. Just as you telling me my healthy normal intact son needs to be circumcised for medical benefit will get me to unleash a fury like you have never seen before. You circumcised your son out of your bias to your own genitalia and your refusal to see yourself as a victim of genital mutilation and nothing more.

  63. Jeff Cowsert says:

    Mark Lyndon What about the Muslims Religious rights. Don't you think the US Ban of Female Genital Mutilation makes the Muslims feel unwelcome or violated. The truly believe they need to amputate parts of their girls and boys reproductive system in order for them to be accepted by their god and community. Seems strange to me that Jewish are allowed to mutilate their boys for their god but Muslims aren't allowed to mutilate their girls to offer a little blood and flesh to their god. Do you think we should talk to local law about getting the FGM Ban reversed? I'm personally not in favor of ANY Genital Mutilation of ANY Child, but fair is fair – right?

  64. Jeff Cowsert says:

    Arie's Pragmatic Politics Because the SF attempt didn't need to include Female Genital Mutilation. FGM was outlawed in the US in 1997.

  65. Jeff Cowsert says:

    Are you suggesting that those fighting for genital autonomy are also pro-abortion?

  66. Jeff Cowsert says:

    Does anyone else notice those in favor of child rights have a photo of themselves, while the pro-cut comments all come from Guns, Paintings, No Face….. If the pro-cut folks feel so right about this argument, why do they hide?

  67. Jeanice Barcelo says:

    Two points I'd like to make — (i) Your notion that "the amount of pain endured by a grownup far exceeds the suffering of an 8-day old infant" is absolutely wrong. Infants are at the height of sensitivity and vulnerability. Sensory learning is at its peak while children are in the womb and for the first few hours and days after birth. Slicing off the most sensitive part of their penis while an infant is strapped to a board or while adult men forcefully hold him down and dribble wine in his mouths does not make for positive sensory stimulation. On the contrary. Cortisol levels in the brain rise to new heights during circumcision and do not return to baseline even six months after the trauma. We are talking about irreversible harm and brain damage because of this sadistic procedure. (ii) If you god demands that you cut off a piece of your infant son's penis in order to create a covenant with him, then it is time you questioned the god you are worshiping. The real Creator — i.e., the one who created the magnificent human body, with every inch receptive to human love, gave us everything we need to lead spiritually fulfilling, deeply meaningful lives. It only those who would benefit from destroying human love and the natural connection we have to each other and to all of life that would create a god who tells people to cut off the most sensitive part of their baby's penis. And it is only those who are under a spell and severe forms of mind-control that would mutilate and harm their children through circumcision.

  68. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_babies
    1a. adults can be given general anesthesia and narcotic painkillers; babies can not.
    1d. http://www.drmomma.org/2011/03/he-didnt-cry-babies-in-shock.html

  69. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    You mean like the pedophile promoting pic you have. A legend in your own narcissistic mind

  70. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    If you don't want your son circumcised, don't. That is your right. Thankfully, the US Constitution protects me from bigots like you.

  71. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Care to post a link to the RAMBAM quote? And I don't mean the stormfront site you frequent

  72. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Jeff, We are saying that given your bogus quotes – for which you refuse to provide a legitimate link, your angst is not about circumcision but about Jews. Thank you for outing yourself

  73. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    As I read some of the postings, something quickly stands out: There are two types objecting circumcision. People like Mark, objecting for personal reasons, but accepting Freedom Religion and Beliefs and understanding his beliefs are different then those accepting of circumcision yet is not imposing of those beliefs.

    Then we have the likes of Jeff, who posts bogus quotes from nazi blogs to promote he DEMANDS whose attacks are not on circumcisions, but on Jews.But then, Jewish sites tend to attract Jew haters. I would dare Jeff to go to a Muslim site to condemn anything.

    As for Jamie, somewhere in between. I am "a victim of my own circumcision?" Thank you very much I like my circumcision! There are more doctors that agree with circumcisions being a health benefit then there are the euro doctors who oppose. And let's remember: THOSE are the same euro doctors that were visibly upset when the nazi medical experiments were stopped after the Shoah removing a (to them) great source of learning. The tradition of Jew hatred in the euro 'scientific' community is as old as science itself. Unlike female circumcision, circumcision of boys does not negate or diminish sexual pleasure. Keep your prejudices to yourself.

  74. Jeff Cowsert says:

    Arie's Pragmatic Politics I have yet to see anyone request a link for any of my comments – but I will look again. What information would you like to see? Your opinion that I have an issue with Jews instead of circumcision is incorrect.

  75. Jeff Cowsert says:

    I gave citation for the book and the author. Go to the library and look it up. I also gave a link to the article, written by a Jewish woman, in revolt to circumcision.

  76. Jeff Cowsert says:

    Arie's Pragmatic Politics Wow! Have you ever heard the term "slander"? You go pretty far out with your name calling, while hiding behind your gun pic and alias. Nice touch with the Politically Inorrect Comment bud!

  77. Jeff Cowsert says:

    I am not a Nazi or have I ever visited or quoted from a Nazi site. You don't have to dare me to speak in revolt to child mutilation on Muslim sites because I have already done this. I also speak out against the actions of many hospitals, for MGM who happen to be Christian, Community, Federal. You really don't know me well enough to be making the attacks and accusations you are making.

  78. Jeff Cowsert says:

    I am not a Nazi or have I ever visited or quoted from a Nazi site. You don't have to dare me to speak in revolt to child mutilation on Muslim sites because I have already done this. I also speak out against the actions of many hospitals, for MGM who happen to be Christian, Community, Federal. You really don't know me well enough to be making the attacks and accusations you are making.

    You seem to have conventiently left Rob out of your "sizing up" of those in this conversation whom you disagree with. What about Robs cries that he has been robbed of a body part he never wanted to lose because the Jewish community felt the need to take it from him to mark him for their chosen religion. What about the fact that his religious freedom has been violated? What words to you have to make it right for him? How does the Jewish faith make it right for all the other men and children who feel the same as Rob? Are they mere caualties of the faith?

  79. Tamara Murphy says:

    Your religious freedoms do not extend to the genitals of children- male or female.

  80. James Loewen says:

    Arie's Pragmatic Politics to suggest that anyone who questions or criticizes forced genital cutting is a "Jew hater" is simplistic and willfully ignorant. A blatant diversionary tactic that is not working anymore.

    Circumcision is child sexual abuse and I respect all Jews who recognize this an speak out against this atrocity.

  81. I have renounced my Judaism, because I don't want to be part of a group that ritualistically mutilates babies.

  82. Megan Lioness says:

    No one is assaulting Jewish culture! We are aiming to stop the assaults on baby boys. There is absolutely no science to back the fact that infants feel less pain than adults. The only difference in circumcising a baby versus an adult is that the adult can say, NO! There is no harm in letting babies grow into adults and letting them decide for themselves what God has in plan for the look and function of their genitals.

  83. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    And YOU define MY religious FREEDOMS? Not in the US it doesn't! It is because of people like you that we will continue to defend the Constitution

  84. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Jeff Cowsert Where's the source of your FABRICATED quote jeff?

  85. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Stu Silverman Isn't Freedom of Religion GREAT! That if you have a personal profound disagreement, you are not obligated to remain part of that faith. Truly great to live in a FREE State. Thanks Stu

  86. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    @James: ONE doctor's opinion. And we can provide quotes from numerous pediatricians that disagree. And in reading Glick's articles, two things come to mind: ONE: He is an anthropologist, NOT a physician. And SECOND, he repeatedly comments that he "thinks," NOT "knows." BIG difference. Read his works.

  87. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    And the majority of US DOCTORS say there is. FACT: This is a DIRECT attack on Judaism! FALLACY: It's meant to protect the child. Come out of the closet and admit it

  88. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    "Your religious community?" Speaks for itself. "No respect?" Personal attacks. Not unusual for Jew haters to stage personal attacks when their convoluted "logic" fails. Disdain for Western Democratic Values? Yet, I aam the one that will fight to protect the Constitution (The hallmark of Democratic values) whilst you would shred the parts you don't like! Admit what you are rob and stop pretending.

  89. Tamara Murphy says:

    The 14 amendment grants males the same constitutional right to genital integrity females have regardless of what religion their parents follow.

  90. James Loewen says:

    Leonard Glick is both a medical doctor and an anthropologist.

    Increasing numbers of ethical doctors are voicing publicly their opposition to genital mutilation of children. 38 of them just protested publicly.

    See: Cultural Bias in the AAP’s 2012 Technical Report and Policy Statement on Male Circumcision. Pediatrics 2013 131 (4)

  91. Sorry, but you've got some mid 19th century views on infants and pain. Just because you don't remember something, doesn't mean you weren't in pain. Pain has a lasting effect when experienced by a newborn. It alters the brain and causes a lessened tolerance in the child and adult. Unlike adults who can prepare, rationalize, (and quite importantly) receive relief, newborns interpret severe pain in the only way they can (that they are dying and their loved ones have abandoned them) which interferes with trust development and bonding. They receive no – or pathetic excuses for- pain relief like sugar or alcohol. Physically, the infant has to endure the tearing of synechia (the membrane that bonds the foreskin to the glans) which in a grown man has naturally separated painlessly. Also, the spinal function of dampening pain signals is not yet fully functional in an infant. You have come quite close to a rational perspective here with the exception that you use these outdated notions to continue support of denial of choice. If a man wants to pledge a sacrifice to god, more power to him, and if it hurts, well, that's part of it, but it WILL be less pain than he would have endured as a baby.

  92. Arie's Pragmatic Politics – You're incorrect. Rules in place against violence do not change in favor of the violent party when their act is religiously motivated. You can't kill, hit, stab or poison someone just because you hear god tell you to, or because you read it in a religious book,or choose to interpret a leaders words in that way. That's NOT what religious freedom is. People are protected physically from harm REGARDLESS of motivation for harm coming from someone's religion. We are still working the social biases and normalized habits out of practice to attain integrity for that ESTABLISHED principle. Forced genital alteration is simply the next step. You can still do it, just make sure the person you do it to is WILLING. /,,

  93. Katie Allen says:

    It sounds like the only portion of the constitution you are interested in upholding would be the portions you see fit to validate you argument, while completely ignoring the portions that protect the individual actually being circumcised. So long as the YOU can use the first amendment to protect your right to circumcise your child, why can't that same amendment be used to ensure the CHILD has the religious freedom to refuse a religious circumcision. Or the 14th amendment be used to guarantee equal protection under the law for male minors to be protected from underage circumcision as females are protected?

  94. Jeff Cowsert says:

    Which quote?

  95. Jeff Cowsert says:

    Arie's Pragmatic Politics, is it possible that "you" actually hate anyone who isn't Jewish or who doesn't agree with your views. I happen to have Jewish friends whom I love dearly. I also happen to know Megan and I am certain she is not Anti-Semitic. You cannot possibly know the people in this thread well enough to be making these accusations of hatred and hidden agendas.

  96. Vincent Coletta says:

    I was forced to have a circumcision at only days old. Religious freedom ends where someone else's body begins. All I want is someone to be able to CHOOSE what they want for their body.

  97. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Sounds more like a genetic problem. Most men I know are circumcised and NONE have any issues. Stop blaming the circumcision for what is obviously another cause. And as the CONSTITUTION allows, I will choose for my sons – not you

  98. Vincent Coletta says:

    What could the other cause be, please enlighten me? Because I was born with the equipment to keep this from happening. The Constitution doesn't allow you to choose, the 14th amendment extends the same protections girl's get to boys. The problem we have is one of enforcement.

  99. There is no medical reason that can insist to remove a men's sensitive part.
    Almost all medical reasons have good alternatives thatn circumcision.
    This procedure should be banned world wide.

  100. A man should make up his own mind when he is 18. A child should never get cut.

  101. A man should make up his own mind when he is 18. A child should never get cut.

  102. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    According to YOU! There IS significant data that refutes your comments and second my Freedom of Religion of faith trumps your demands. But nice to know that your ilk – that is pushing for an end to Judaism all together – considers doctors whose research disproves your prejudices as either "non-qualified" or "biased." If you don't approve, make sure none of your children have a circumcision. That is your CHOICE!

  103. Arie's Pragmatic Politics says:

    Vincent Coletta Make sure your children are not circumcised vinnie. If you're pissed, take it out on your parents. My First Amendment trumps your attempts to ban my religion! And by the way, you may want to read the 14th Amendment. You obviously are ignorant of what it provides for.Your ignorance of the Constitution (More probably your hatred of it) is only surpassed by your hatred of Jews and Muslims

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

  104. Anonymous says:

    Dan Silagi if circumcision was this miracle procedure that reduced the risks of HIV/ aids then why are the rates of hiv/aids in Europe 3 times lower in north america we we practice circumcision

  105. Nigel Oswyn says:

    I remind people that if Abraham had done to himself what they do to boys today, he would have never lived to tell anyone about it. Moreover, after he allegedly did this, and told everyone, did he show everyone what he did? People have built their lives around fables, started a cycle of abuse, and now have to continue the abuse to justify it. Genital mutilation is a shonda.

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